JourneyTalks Podcast
Your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration.
JourneyTalks Podcast
Finding Gratitude in the Shadow: A Conversation with Matt Nelson
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Matt Nelson's journey through grief, music, and spiritual transformation offers profound insights into what it means to live gratefully in a complex world. As the composer for the hit series "The Chosen" and an accomplished multi-instrumentalist, Matt brings a uniquely contemplative perspective to the creative process.
Whether you're navigating grief, seeking to deepen your creative practice, or simply curious about how different spiritual traditions might illuminate each other, this conversation offers gentle wisdom for the journey. Listen with an open heart and discover how embracing the paradoxes of human experience can transform everything. #jtpstories #gratitude #spirituality #growth
Welcome to Journey Talks Podcast
Speaker 1The Journey Talks Podcast , your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration , hosted by Jorge Gonzalez . Trigger warning In this episode we discuss mental health topics , including anxiety , depression and other sensitive issues . Listener discretion is advised . If you find these subjects triggering or distressing , please call the NAMI helpline at 1-800-950-6264 . Let's continue the journey together . Hello and welcome to Journey Talks podcast , your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration . My name is Jorge Gonzalez and I am your host .
Speaker 1I am convinced that behind every gratitude , there is a powerful story waiting to be told . I am convinced that through this space , we can create precisely a space to share each other's stories and reconnect with that beautiful thing that we call life . And if we connect with life , it means that we are connected with something even greater , which is our shared humanity . As humans , we all share one thing in common , and it's that experience of being alive . And we're all together in this journey that we call life , and we meet people along the way and we go through situations that leave a footprint in us . Some people , some situations stay with us for a very short period of time . However , others stay with us for a little longer . Who are the people ? What were the situations in our lives that have opened doors for transformation and helped us become the person we are today . Through this podcast , I will be interviewing people with stories of gratitude , and my hope is that our willingness to reconnect with these stories will help us celebrate that beautiful shared humanity that we are so blessed by and fortunate to be in .
Introducing Composer Matt Nelson
Speaker 1I feel like when we give ourselves that space , we can tap into something really special , and that is the unconditional love we all can connect from within . And that is the unconditional love we all can connect from within .
Speaker 1Today's guest is someone I've been eager to have on this podcast for a very , very long time . He is a composer and multi-instrumentalist best known for his composition work with Dan Heseltine on the hit original series the Chosen , as well as his extensive career as a touring and session musician . His artistic voice has been described as warm , contemplative and sincere , rooted in a classical tradition , yet embracing imperfection and timbral experimentation . A graduate from Middle Tennessee State University , with a Bachelor of Music in Cello and Jazz Guitar , his impressive career has included collaborations with industry giants like JD Sother , anderson East Michael W Smith , amy Grant , stephen Curtis Chapman and Cheap Trick , among others . You may have seen him on NBC's Today Late Night Show with Seth Meyers , the Ellen DeGeneres Show , or at our iconic venues like the Grand Ole Opry and NPR's Mountain Stage . Alongside his ongoing creative project , he's currently studying to become a certified spiritual director , adding yet another meaningful layer to his artistic and personal journey .
Speaker 1Our path first crossed about 12 years ago through a mutual friend , our lovely friend Heather Bond . Heather , greetings to you wherever you are . I think you're in California these days , and we played this very small gig at a coffee shop in Louisville , kentucky . Since then , we've stayed connected through social media and every encounter we've had has revealed something profoundly human and deeply thoughtful about him . I am talking about no other than Matt Nelson . Matt , thank you for accepting this invitation and welcome to Jenny Talks Podcast .
Speaker 2How are you ? Oh my gosh , I'm great and I'm so happy to be here , and I'm thrilled and honored that you wanted to have a conversation like this with me . It's been forever since we've actually seen each other and we've spent very little time together , so I'm thrilled . If we're going to get together and talk and get to know each other a little more , we might as well record it and make it a podcast .
Speaker 1I
The Meaning of Gratitude
Speaker 1know right , it's been a long time coming , let's do it . So what's been going on with you lately ?
Speaker 2Well , we're digging into season five of the Chosen , so that's the current thing we're now . We're like thigh deep in the waters of the Chosen for season five .
Speaker 1That's amazing , yes , and you're doing everything for them right .
Speaker 2Dan and I are doing all the score . Yeah , pretty much . I mean , the production has gotten a lot more expansive in the last couple of seasons . Like every season , it feels like the sets are a little bit bigger , there's more complexity in the production . It just gets bigger . The last couple of seasons , too , we had to create some music before the show was even filmed , because there were going to be characters or background actors playing and or singing during the show , and so we had to write some things before production even started , and there's a bunch of that stuff in season five . There's a lot of on-screen music in season five .
Speaker 1People , have no clue what it takes , even what you just said now that you have to compose music beforehand . But I was under the impression that most of the music happens in post-production , after you have a perfect idea of the scenes and the storyline and whatnot . But it sounds like it's a bit of a mix of everything .
Speaker 2Yeah , in terms of the score itself for the show , it's all done pretty much it's in post-production after the fact . But some of the stuff is a combination where we might've written a piece to be performed or synced to as they're shooting a scene , and then sometimes we have to go back and replace that original composition too , because we maybe just demoed it up before they filmed it and then , when we saw everything cut together , we thought well , this has got to be a little different .
Speaker 2We're gonna have to improve this compositional flow a little more after it's edited together . Yeah , it's crazy . So many moving parts . It's amazing , oh my . Yeah , it's crazy .
Speaker 1So many moving parts . It's amazing . Oh , my goodness , I feel like we can just talk . We can have a podcast episode just on that .
Speaker 2I love it so much , I really do .
Speaker 1That's amazing . Well , this podcast is all about sharing stories of gratitude , but the gratitude that comes as a result of moments of growth and transformation in our lives . I'm convinced that your story is powerful and I'll be so honored , matt , if you could open your heart and share some of your gratitude stories with me and our audience . Are you down for it ? I'm totally down for it . Let's go straight to it , matt . First question what is gratitude for you and what is your relationship with gratitude ?
Speaker 2I had to spend a little time thinking about what gratitude is . I think gratitude for me is recognizing that everything that I have I've been given , and it doesn't mean that I haven't worked hard or honed a skill or a craft or nurtured a relationship or said yes to the right opportunity , because all those things are true . But I think it might actually be a quote from David in the Old Testament that says what does a man have that he hasn't been given ? I think about that all the time . What do I have that I haven't been given ? And even if it's knowledge and I know we're going to go here later in the conversation but faith , it's all been given . A lot of things I think are true just because I read them in a book .
Speaker 2But , yes , I think gratitude is living with the awareness that everything that I've received has been given to me by someone or something . It doesn't come from me . Yeah , I get it , it doesn't come from me .
Speaker 1Yeah , I get it . Some of the answers that I keep hearing and receiving is appreciation , is awareness and mindset . So it's interesting that you bring this layer and texture of something that has been given to you . I know you're not talking about material things . It's the gift that keeps on giving right . It's this message , it's this intuition , it's this new understanding that allows you to take the next step or strengthen a skill set and you continue to move forward in life . I appreciate you adding that little texture to the plethora of the meanings and experiences that people have shared . So , thank you very much , matt . What are you most grateful for ? Wow ?
Music as a Divine Mystery
Speaker 2That's a daunting question but , like so many things that I feel grateful for , the gift of being able to live this human experience is . A lot of the best things that have happened to me in life have been things that I would not have even known to ask someone for , so I didn't even know , I wouldn't have even known them to be grateful for them or to want to have them happen to me . And it's the same way about having this human experience . I didn't at least not that I'm aware of I didn't ask to be a human being and be consolidated in this little human form that I refer to as Matt . But yeah , the whole experience is . It's more than just joyful experiences , it's the whole spectrum of the experience . Yeah , I mean , words fail really to describe it . That's what I feel most thankful for .
Speaker 1Lately in my journey and the older I get , I am blown away with this notion of consciousness and self-awareness and , you know , I kind of resonate with what you're saying . Like for me , I'm grateful for the whole experience of being human , because all experiences and mind you , I think we have to be respectful for people that are going through challenges and difficult situations and painful situations . However , there's always this space to recognize that all those situations and experiences somehow work out for a greater understanding of self-awareness and life . I want to be respectful for those who are experiencing violence and sorrows and pain . Yet most spiritual traditions somehow add the little layer of if you welcome the experience for what it is , you can always find something on the other side , and that has helped me tremendously to leave room for what the lesson or the breakthrough or of your answer is . This end principle of like , everything is connected and when we miss the connectivity and the interconnectedness of everything , we miss out . We do miss out , and I'm going to leave it there for now leave it there for now .
Speaker 2I think , yeah , I mean what you were just saying being grateful for the whole human experience is like it's . It's all a complete mystery really why any of this or any of us are here . Um , I love that . Alan watts describes it as a musical thing or as a dance , and the point of life is not . The point of the dance is not to get to a certain place on the floor while you're dancing .
Speaker 2The point of playing a piece of music is not to see how well you do to make it to the end of the piece of music . It's about the moment-by-moment expression in the music , in the dance , and that the whole universe is just essentially spinning around in a big dance , a big cosmic dance . I mean , I couldn't have even imagined to have such a gift as to be a part of this universe in the form of a human being and getting to experience the most elusive and magical thing of being able to touch music in some way . The gift that I received from my parents , I think by blood and by experience , by blood and by experience , getting able to touch music and have any understanding or appreciation for what it is , is an amazing gift .
Speaker 1I'll leave that there for now Can you think of someone or ?
Speaker 2remember a situation that , looking back , you realize you know yourself better because of it . Yeah , I mean gosh , there are so many people in my life that would qualify for that .
The Enneagram and Self-Discovery
Speaker 2But I think the person that most comes to mind is my former therapist . Actually , he was sort of therapist turned friend , but he died about two and a half years ago . Two years ago and some change which has really flown by . But I was in the middle of my first marriage and I was in grief . I had lost my father a year and some change before I met him . His name is Trey . So when I met Trey , I was trying to figure out which direction was up . I was having a hard time in life with grief really . So I continued to see Trey and I saw Trey on and off between 2007 , I mean right up through yes , about you know , close to 15 years . I think I saw Trey at a couple of years in there where I wasn't seeing him regularly .
Speaker 2People talk often about finding the right fit for therapists and how important that is . I think I just lucked into a really great relationship . He's the guy who introduced me to the Enneagram . Oh , okay , trey's a four . So there was .
Speaker 2I think that he saw . I think he saw little crazy emotional me come into the room and I think he probably tagged me right away like this guy's got to be a four . So really he was the one that said , hey , you ever heard of this thing called the Enneagram ? And then obviously turned me on to all of that theory and practice . But that's one way in which Trey showed me who I am or helped me find , gave me a good mirror to look into . I love that expression . But the other way he did it was just that he is what great therapists are , which are great mirrors , and he just knew how to ask the right questions and really helped me get down to the bottom of myself and kind of find my essence as a person , helped me to love that and appreciate it and in some cases to tolerate it okay , okay , okay , let's , let's , let's stay here for a moment , because this is good first of all , thank you so much for your openness and vulnerability about talking about your journey in therapy .
Speaker 1Welcome to the club . I mean , I've been in therapy for many , many years and it was such a gift to have that safe space , to , like you mentioned , to have someone that can put a mirror in front of you . It's like no other . When you mentioned the gift of having the right fit from the get-go , I completely understand .
Speaker 1The first time I went to therapy , it was not a good match . It felt so weird and it was a new thing for me . And even though I was in seminary back then , I was giving myself permission to explore how this could be something positive , but it didn't click . So it was weird . And then I found someone that walked with me by my side for almost 12 years and I'm grateful for this person , and so I totally understand what a sacred space and what a sacred gift it is to have that space where you have permission to look at all the different aspects of your personality from a distance , with no judgment or , if there's judgment , how to turn down the volume of those voices and to learn to look with compassion to those aspects of our stories and our personalities . I mean , it's just freaking insane . And then when you talked about the Enneagram , which I hope we can , expand a little bit on that too .
Speaker 1Man , what a beautiful tool , right . And so I am the quintessential example of a two . Okay , when you say you're a four , it's amazing , because when I'm in my best self , when I'm integrated , when I'm at the highest , the best version of myself , I am flying in my four energy flying in my four energy Creativity just exudes from me and it's just you know . All that uniqueness and beautiful expression is just in your face . But ultimately I'm a two and I long for people's acceptance .
Speaker 1I long to feel loved and valued you know , and unconsciously speaking , many times I need to be very in tune and in touch when my true energy is actually trying to manipulate the situation , because it's coming and it's acting out from a place of insecurity , right ? So because , guess what ? My therapist also understood and was very familiar with the Enneagram , so again , we had that common language that could help us get to very deep aspects of who we are , and I'm very curious to understand how the Enneagram , or how this relationship with your therapist , helped you . What is the kind of loving or self-love relationship you have with yourself ? Yeah , how , how , what are the things that you do in order to try your best to live in that balance ? Because it's a dance and we've been using the , the image of a dance , yeah , but um , yeah , can you answer that ? I ?
Speaker 2can try . That makes perfect sense to me . I think it has to do with um , finding an equilibrium . If personality and I mean you know , even the enneagram describes it in a really beautiful way but if the personality essentially , if the ego essentially develops to cover up what could be considered deficiencies in the personality , because I've lost this connection with the divine right , with presence , with whatever you want to name it , the personality , sort of like in reaction , in order to fill in those holes , develops these things , that it's kind of like a cosmic addiction , because at first it for a while those mechanisms work really well , they help with forming a sense of secure identity , but but then after a they start to create problems of their own and they start creating problems in relationships and being able to function and sometimes they cause much bigger problems .
Speaker 2So I think figuring out how to find an equilibrium with letting myself be who I am and where I am , warts and all Letting myself be there , but also being slow and patient enough with myself that I can continue to grow in my awareness of how I move through the world , because I don't think I mean speaking in terms of .
Speaker 2I mean let's make it super binary and say I have my good qualities and I have my bad qualities that it's moving too quickly to just look at my list of bad qualities and go , ooh , I don't like these so much . I'm going to try to move away from them , because then
When Faith Containers Shatter
Speaker 2it's kind of the ego trying to fix itself , which doesn't work , so I have to find some way . I mean , another Alan Watts metaphor is like if you're trying not to make any ripples in the water , all you have to do is stop moving . You just have to stop moving and slow down , and then you're not going to make r arms . Um , the more you try to like , squeeze free of the things that I I don't like about myself , it has usually a counterproductive . It has yeah , it has like the contrary effect .
Speaker 1Usually it's the ego trying to fix itself and yeah it doesn't work .
Speaker 1It's interesting For those who have never heard about the Enneagram . Let's see if we can explain it in two sentences . So and please chime in as I try to explain this the Enneagram is a very ancient tool . People are familiar with Myers-Briggs and different kinds of personalities and whatnot , yet the Enneagram it's a tool recognized and known for discerning energies and discerning the core aspects of our personality . My experience is that when you use it just as a personality trait , you really miss out on the richness of how deep and profound this tool is .
Speaker 1It's some Richard Ward talks about that the Enneagram . It's the perfect tool to understand your shadow . And you use the word the ego , and many times the ego gets tainted and we think it's a bad thing . But the way you described the function of the ego was so gracious in my opinion . Oh , thanks . Yeah , you talked about certain experiences that we go through and this part of our personalities that we call the ego finds ways to cope with it , respond to it , and you stated so beautifully when you said sometimes those mechanisms do work and they work so well that we have mastered those skills .
Speaker 2When it gets , juiciest when we overuse them or when life makes sure to remind us that we have lots to learn .
Speaker 1Man , if life doesn't have a way of doing that , you know , and so it's . It's fascinating , and so for our listeners it's nine types , nine numbers , one through nine . Each number is pretty much your core energy , your core essence of who you are . You have strengths or attributes that are part of that energy , and then you have areas of integration where you actually you are not in your best self . If you haven't checked it out either , explore books from Richard Rohr about the Enneagram . Explore books from Claudio Naranjo , a Chilean . I love the way he describes the Enneagram because it's not necessarily from the religious Christian perspective and it was helpful for me .
Speaker 2How do you pronounce his last name ? Is it a hard J or a soft ?
Speaker 1J Naranjo .
Speaker 2Okay , got it .
Speaker 1Chilean psychologist Zen Buddhist practitioner . I mean amazing . And then is it Steve Hudson .
Speaker 2Oh Russ .
Speaker 1Hudson , right , there you go . So for our listeners , check that out . There are a bunch of tests that can help you , but it's perhaps one of the most transformational tools that I have used and worked with , and it was because it helped me understand my shadow . It gave me an opportunity to really look at myself and to really accept the fullness of who I am . In my case , I think it's similar to you , matt .
Speaker 1I was brought up and raised in a Christian context , a Christian household , and so the need to be perfect was essential in my upbringing . And so , as a two , to realize that all my abilities to lure people and to liking me and whatnot because I was a good person actually had a dark side behind it If I was not careful with it was very eyeopening . So I think , in a nutshell , that's how the Enneagram can be used Again different personalities , different traits , and it's an opportunity to get to know the fullness of who you are and hopefully give you access to a healthier relationship that embraces all those aspects of our personality , yeah and gives us opportunities to notice when those things are creeping in , and sometimes , if we get caught up on them , you know , we have to acknowledge okay , I gave in , you know , or other times . We see it coming and we can dance better .
Speaker 2We can dodge some of those dynamics . What would you say ? Yeah , yes , I think there's a . I love that language that uses shadow , and it's the shadow is the thing that I try to hide , it's the thing that I hide from other people and , maybe most powerfully , it's the thing that I hide from myself . I hide from my own awareness . You know what I mean , and it's not even consciously lying to myself . It's the thing I hide from others , the thing I hide from myself , the shadow which I think includes the ego . One of my favorite , you know , the Enneagram , is such a funny thing because I think a lot of non-Christian people think that it's like a coffeehouse evangelicalism , um , language , um . But then there are also people within christianity who think it's like an occult kind of thing and like like no one wants to own it right .
Speaker 2So russ hudson is one of my favorite people , is one of my favorite enneagram people , and I think it's because he was one of the first people that I , outside of people , that I knew personally . He was one of the first people that I listened to some talks and then did some actual reading about the Enneagram and his text with Russ Hudson and Don Richard Riso , which Russ Hudson I think , went and found . There's a whole funny story about how they wound up working together .
Speaker 1Yes , there are different theories .
Speaker 2I love Russ Hudson because he has this really embodied way of identifying with the energies and then putting language to them . He's almost like an actor Watching him talk about it . He'll sit and pause for a second and almost get into character and let his body sort of touch the energy of that point and then sort of speak from it . It's pretty cool .
Speaker 2I think I heard him say one time that a lot of people are turned off by the Enneagram because they've heard it described to them as being merely a personality typing system . It is that , but that's one corner of the map . It's just one little . It is that , but that's one corner of the map . It's just one little , because such people usually say things like I don't like personality typing things because it puts me in a box . But I think it was Russ Hudson that I heard say something like it doesn't put you in a box , it describes to you the box that you are already in and you don't realize it . And it is a map to help you get out of the box . It's actually a map . Yeah , it's a map . It's a cosmic , spiritual map .
Speaker 1And the crazy thing about it is the stories about how it emerged are so interesting . Yeah , from the desert , fathers and mothers , christian early stages , to then Sufis perfecting it and then somehow re-emerging in the I think it was the 70s or the 80s in the Catholic Church with Richard Rohr . With Richard Rohr , meanwhile , you have Clano Naranjo on the opposite part of the world , on somehow having his own guru exposing him to the principles , and he connected it to the psychology . He sort of like gave it psychological language to it . So it's really interesting . Guys , do us a favor and check the annual , because it'll give you such a rich opportunity to love yourself in new ways , to be more gracious with yourself , to tap into aspects of your personality like you say , that you want to hide and run away from , but they are the ones that need love the most .
Speaker 2That's that's the the thing for the Enneagram for me , and the reason it's valuable to me is that it it shows me how to become a fully integrated human being and to integrate all of these parts of myself . And if I mean that's some more therapy , is you least on how to integrate all these parts of myself and
Finding Integration Through Grief
Speaker 2how I can let other people be where they are on their path of integrating parts of themselves altogether . Yes , it gives me this much broader . I can slow down with other people and I can let them be them .
Speaker 1And that's such a grace , graceful way of putting that , matt . Thank you , okay , okay , okay , okay , let's , let's . Let's switch gears here for a moment . So I've always been very curious about the relationship of creativity and spirituality .
Speaker 2All right .
Speaker 1In your case . I'm very interested in learning about your relationship between music as a creative outlet and your spiritual journey . Okay , like you , I grew up in the church , praise and worship music . I was a worship leader myself . At one point in my life , music was the outlet where I felt connected to the divine , to spirit . Writing a song was the most powerful thing , mastering an instrument even more , but yet that had stages in my life . For me . I'm very curious if you could tell us a little bit more about what this relationship means and how it continues to resonate with you over the years .
Speaker 2Wow that's such a great question . I could probably draw some pretty clear parallels , at least in terms of how I understood both things earlier in my life and then now I was kind of a Protestant mutt as a kid . In my family we attended a lot of different Protestant churches over the course of my childhood , but I didn't really have this internalized sense of salvation or spiritual connection . I think that I had that when I was a kid . I think I had it when I was a child and then somewhere in there I think I lost touch with that sense of connection and then rediscovered it later as a teenager . I had a friend who was going to a really charismatic missionary church and had a born again experience . He did , and he was my best friend and so we had lots of conversation and then I had a born-again experience . It was very impactful for me .
Speaker 2But at the same time I was in a connection with creativity and music . My parents were music teachers and so I played the cello in high school and was with growing seriousness about music theory , classical instruction , all of that , and so I can see a lot of parallels looking back on the way that I understood as a young Christian kid , the way that I understood God and faith and Christian theology was a lot the way that I understood music , that there was sort of like with my dad . He was a he's a like classical , for the most part trumpet player , and trumpet players are notoriously egocentric and he was no different in that way and I loved him for that . But for him there's a right way to do a thing and so he , I think , instilled in me this sense of that there is a right and wrong way to approach something , and so I got moving into my 20s .
Speaker 2I had this sense that I had these somewhere in there when I was a teenager , started playing guitar . So I had this sort of shadow rock and roll part of me that was shot off somewhere that I didn't know how it connected to this cello playing part of me over here , this music school part of me . I had this weird sort of split going on , split personalities with music , and I eventually slowly learned how to integrate those things together . On the spiritual side , I think the integration process has been a lot slower . After I lost my dad , I went through a period of really having no . The only thing I held onto was that . Here's the thing about all that grief it's not just grief over losing someone , it could be grief over some other sort of disillusionment with life is that ? It's an experience in life that I the faith that I grew up with I was experiencing things in life that I didn't have a container that was big enough to hold , and yeah , you know , and that's .
Speaker 1Tell me more , tell me more . You're hitting something really good .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I was . I didn't have a container . You know this faith system that I had been given and nurtured , I thought I understood . I thought I knew who God was and how this all works . It was kind of wrapped up neatly in a little theory and it really worked for me for a long time , you know , until I lost my dad and then that container was just kind of shattered . You know the things that , um , the things that drew me in spiritually and engaged me , no longer engaged me and felt , um , felt pretty empty and meaningless and and I felt really lost and grief was changing me as a person and so I was acting out in grief and didn't understand my own place as a human being . As a result of that grief , I didn't know how to be or how to hold relationships together or how to be .
Speaker 2I was in college at the time , on my way to finishing my bachelor's degree , and I didn't know , I didn't have a container that could hold all that . So I kind of just let go . I let go of a lot of stuff and over a period of a few years it was like I couldn't . The only thing that I held on to from my faith understanding then was that there is some kind of benevolent being or source . That is good , but that's about it . I don't know about the story of Jesus , I don't know about atonement , I don't know theologically how all that stuff works , but it seems like there's got to be some ultimate goodness . So that was the one thing at that time that I never really let go of . And thank God , somebody introduced me to Richard Rohr's writing and that for me was like the Naked Now was the book that I started with and yeah , you probably got it right behind you .
Speaker 1I do . I don't feel if it's the falling upward and other stuff . Yeah , go on . No , no , listen , you have said so much . I want to thank you because you tapped on something very special and I'm going to do my best at engaging , following up with you and , at the same time , sort of like expand the conversation with whoever is listening . Love , love , loved how this conversation is revisiting the theme of grief , and we talked earlier that this is not a superficial gratitude that we're talking about here . All right , I think there's gratitude in understanding where grief comes from and how grief shapes us , and it behooves us not to look at grief with respect and allow the space that it needs in our lives , because when we don't do that , it's almost like suicidal . In my opinion , you are ridding yourself from something that needs attention . And that leads me to this statement that you touch on , which is you had a container that didn't have room for that .
Speaker 1I'm never shy from explaining my background . I am a minister , I study theology . I'm never shy from explaining my background I am a minister , I study theology . I'm a musician , I study music , but ultimately , I understand the human experience and how , throughout civilizations , throughout history , there are always voices that will bring us a glimpse of wisdom .
Speaker 1That shatters all fear , shatters everything . That shatters all fear shatters everything , and it allows us to sit as we are with what it is and contempt peace . It's an overwhelming sense of unity and connection that overpasses all narratives . That overpasses all narratives and I know I'm speaking in a big way , but I really resonate with when you said that the container you had didn't work anymore for you and it did the same thing with me , that beautiful description that you said . It was put in a beautiful box and if you follow these rules , life is perfect . Guess what ? It doesn't work like that , and one of the things that started shattering that beautiful paradigm that I had built for myself or that was given to me , it was when I was a hospital chaplain . Right after seminary , I was a hospital chaplain at a trauma-worn hospital .
Speaker 2Oh man , tell me more about that , seminary . I was a hospital chaplain at a trauma one hospital . Oh man , tell me more about that .
Speaker 1I mean , life got real , dude , you know . And here I was . I was probably 26 years old , 20 . Yeah , I got married , 26 , 27 years old and , let's be honest , you're an adult , but I was a baby still . Yeah , I feel that , and I was the chaplain of the hospital . It was a trauma one hospital dealing with whatever you can imagine .
Speaker 1And that was the first time that I was confronted with the fact that all the things that I learned in seminary about God and Jesus and all of that , you have to put that aside and deal with life for what it is and understand that ultimately , you need to accept things for what they are . And in my experience and I'm say this with all the respect there were moments in which and where the christian narrative fell short . You know , it really fell short on on how even we have very strong and powerful images of pain and grief in the Christian platform , in the Christian faith . I mean , the cross is at the center of it . But what I felt in my experience was it was the way we unpacked the cross . It was the way that we have such a hard time embracing precisely what we've been talking about on this podcast episode , which is shame is guilt , is our shadow , because we've been taught that God turns away from it . You know what transformed my spirituality when I gave myself permission to understand that it is precisely in those places where I am held in love and in grace .
Speaker 1And so , as a young chaplain , I was confronted with the fact that I had to really put aside all of those programs , all of those ideas and theological concepts that for your average human being , when they're in the worst moment of their lives , they mean nothing . For your average human being , when they're in the worst moment of their lives , they mean nothing Because it doesn't . Do you think it's important to you know ? Do you think it's
The Zen Gardener: Nature Creating Nature
Speaker 1important to talk about atonement at that point ? Absolutely not , that is I mean , don't get me wrong , in all due respect , but that's a constructed idea that helps us understand an aspect of our human experience .
Speaker 1But at that moment this person needs to be held . This person needs to stay in the complexities and the messiness and the uncertainty of life , and in those moments we are not alone . And in those moments I was challenged and granted the opportunity to sit with it . And what people have no clue is that those interactions were much more of a blessing to me than whatever I could have represented for these people at that time . You know so . You know , I still appreciate when you share that , because these are really delicate subjects and aspects of our spirituality and faith .
Speaker 1But it's crucial , it's crucial that we give ourselves permission to really sit with it , because without it and this goes back to Zen and to Alan Watts- you know , without it , then we don't know exactly what peace is , or joy is , or healing is , and so we need to , we need to allow ourselves to receive it and to sit with it , and so it was transformational . I'll never forget I had a meltdown . I remember it was . I finished on a third shift like an overnighter , and this was the end .
Speaker 1It was a rough night , and a patient that I was dealing with was , by himself , an immigrant here . This person had lost his legs on a train . This person's running away trying to find a better situation for himself . He knew , quote unquote , how to manage the train so you know , these people jump on the trains and knew the routes and ended up moving from city to city . But this young man fell asleep and the trains squeezed his legs and he lost his legs , and this guy had to go back to where he was from , probably to a life that was pretty . The end , quote unquote , of his life , and so I was . It's like for me was pretty , the end , quote unquote , of his life , and so I was . It's like for me . It's like who is God in those moments ? And then , on top of that , a patient that was dying of cancer died by herself . And so here I was .
Speaker 1You know it's eight o'clock in the morning after , you know , working my shift at 7 pm the night before and I'm exhausted and I'm just like I had to recognize my humanity . I had to recognize when I talk about our shared humanity , it's not just the beautiful moments . Our shared humanity also includes these difficult , messy , challenging moments of life that we don't have an answer immediately for . You know , I don't mean to hijack , because this interview is about you and your journey . I love this stuff , but it's , you know , it's an effort to balance each other experiences and see what comes out of it and how these conversations can probably strengthen each other's stories and other people out there .
Speaker 1Right , because there's still light on the other side . It's your own story and your own journey and somehow we're all connected . And how do you find meaning out of those moments ? How do you come back again from the ashes ? It's what I feel like we continue to receive an opportunity to start over and over and over . That's salvation every single day . It's not a one thing , it's an ongoing thing and it's here now . Like you said earlier , I don't know what's going to happen afterwards . To be honest with you , I don't . But these narratives , these stories help me deal with my reality now and give me hope and connect me with people like you and connect me with everybody and and connect me with everybody you know , and so to me that's just really , really special .
Speaker 2I lost my grandmother early this year . She was 94 years old and worked full-time until a few years before she died . She only stopped driving a car just a couple of years before she died . She had at least weekly outings for Mexican food and margaritas with some of her best friends Nice . She was a diehard domino player , including trash talking and all that . She's an amazing , amazing human being . I had the gift of being able to be with her in hospice and man . What you shared about some of your experiences where the mental constructs and concepts of God and how all of this works when a person gets into these situations
Closing Thoughts and Invitation
Speaker 2, none of that matters . The concepts don't apply like you think they're supposed to . We got to be with her when she went , and it was- .
Speaker 2Wow what a gift it was . I had never been with someone when they died before and it was one of the most profound experiences of my life , I think so far I can imagine . Yeah , it was really . It was like I was trying to describe it to some people close to me after it happened and it felt like nothing and everything at the same time . It was really wild .
Speaker 2But it's those kind of moments that you mentioned before about some other religious practices , I think , about Hinduism and Buddhism .
Speaker 2There are , as American , christian people and I think I would still call myself a Christian person in some way but it's really easy to intellectualize everything where we come from the enlightenment and we come from the tradition of Western European theology and we're going to theorize and have all of our concepts about God and how all of this works , the Eastern approaches to God , if they even . I mean , I don't think the naming of God is important , but I kind of admire a little more the refusal to name this big Right that we're talking about . Absolutely Christian people name it God . I think that's one of the reasons my progression with spirituality kind of went post-evangelicalism to Roar brand mysticism , christian mysticism . I read a couple other authors at the same time Zen became very interesting to me and I wanted to learn more about Zen Buddhism . So that kind of carried me out towards Zen Buddhism and I haven't taken vows or anything like that , I've sort of flirted with a seated meditation practice pretty inconsistently .
Speaker 2But the thing that I which is also you know how I got turned on to alan watts and , and I think alan watts was probably the thing that was like oh yeah , okay , there's something real deep over here that is meaningful , you know if you let me do yeah , yeah , please what it's fascinating about alan watts is that he was an anglican priest .
Speaker 1He understands this Western way of thinking , this Christian mindset , and then he flips it upside down in such a rich way . I'm like you . I'm a follower of the teachings of Jesus . Every time I look at him , I am blown away and I need to give myself permission to just look at his teachings .
Speaker 1100 and understand that there's a building created around it that we call christianity , you know . But at the core , guys it's , there's something really special . And he there was somehow an understanding of the human psyche , of our energies , of the ego . He always opened a door to a change of your mindset . That's how I best describe his teachings . It was an invitation to a changing of our mind and our hearts absolutely . And when that happens it's like everything like like if we go back to that human , that shared humanity kind of thing that you talked about and and I don't know if I sort of like I think you hit on it earlier , but when I studied the Buddha and Buddhism , it actually helped me understand Jesus better . It strengthened my Christian values and principles I've had 100% the same experience .
Speaker 2I've had 100% the same experience . I read the Bhagavad Gita and I'm reading the Bhagavad Gita going . I mean me , in my American , western Christian mindset , reading through the Bhagavad Gita , I'm going . This is what roar names as Christ . Yet there were things about it that seemed to dig further down in the tunnel than I had gone in Christian thinking . There were things that were down below the surface that in all of my experience with Christianity I had not gone quite that far down the tunnel . And I don't think that's a shortcoming of Christian thinking , right , no , no , no . And it was the same thing with . It's the same thing with Zen , buddhism , that there's . Well , you know , I mean , it really is a lot like .
Speaker 2I've heard Richard Rohr say that at the more mature levels of pretty much all religious practices , they look more similar to each other . Down here , at the immature levels , they , they , they're , they look wildly different from each other and they fight . But you know , as the , as the , you know the pyramid gets closer to the top , or the , the triangle , or , you know , the , the more , the more a person approaches the source from which all this stuff comes from , the more similar the language is . Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1You talked about Richard Rohr and it just dawned on me . Look what I have right here .
Speaker 2That's so great . You know , these are really juicy stuff , man . Yeah , you're right .
Speaker 1I'm so thankful because it was a Catholic , franciscan priest that helped me find a healthy spirituality , and I'm a Presbyterian minister , you know , and I'm so thankful for that plethora of voices that continue to conglomerate and reaffirm that collective wisdom that is so real . You cannot , once you see it , you cannot not see it . You know , once you experience it , you cannot not , you cannot pretend it's not there . You know , I just think it's great . Now let's see . I want to honor people's pen of attention , and this is clear . You know what this tells me , matt . We have to , we have to do episode two Dude I'm in .
Speaker 1I love this . I do want to ask you something , and we have kind of touched on it . I'm very curious if you can tell me in two sentences why do you do what you do ? Why music , why ?
Speaker 2I can tell you pretty quickly Because it's a complete , it's a total mystery to me . I can't , I don't really know . It's mysterious to me how it works . I don't know where it comes from . It is , it's a mystery and I so like . There are things that I've . I mean , it's a bit like the divine to me . It's like God , in that if I'm in a place where I'm present with myself and if I'm open-minded , open-hearted , it's in the air everywhere all the time , and if I'm open to what's flowing through that air , I can channel it .
Speaker 2And it's like water or air or electricity , but I don't really know where it comes from , and I'm not sure that if I knew for certain that it was my manipulation of it that led to something great , or that this is how you make music , if I could , like , bottle it and make it into a formula that worked the same way every time , then it would be boring . So it's , it's the mystery of not knowing where it comes from . Um , and that's the thing that keeps me coming back to it is that it's different every time . I have to return to the well thirsty every time , and I have to .
Speaker 2It's like meditation , meditation that I have to . I can learn things about meditation , about how to better , how to better um , set up my , my seated posture , or whatever the technical requirements might be , um , I can learn technical things , but as far as engaging in this mystical process that goes from the time I sit down on the cushion to the time that my meditation is over , there's a mysterious process that happens in here that I'm not in control of . It just is a thing that happens . That doesn't come from me , it comes from somewhere else , divine , and that's the way I feel about music and I and I feel like there's no point at which it doesn't become muscle memory , really ever . It's just at least to do it Well , it doesn't . It's not muscle memory I , it feels , I think it has to feel new every time that I , that I come to it .
Speaker 1Got it , thank you . Thank you , this is good . I appreciate it . All right , so kind of in closing , because we definitely have to do part two and hopefully part three , and we'll keep expanding this conversation . But what is a special quarter figure that has inspired you lately or throughout ?
Speaker 2your life . I forgot you were going to ask me this . Hang on , hang on , hang on . Okay , let's see Quotes . I feel like I had a good one when I read the question that you sent me and I forgot what it was . It's okay If it doesn't come , it doesn't come , and the only the quote that comes to mind is the quote that it's . I've got it on my website . Actually , it's an Alan . Watts quote about Zen gardening yes , that's a good one , and I think it's good for creativity Do you have it . What's that ?
Speaker 1Do you have it with you ?
Speaker 2I will in a second when I look it up on my website . Hang on , let's see . Let's see . Here she is .
Speaker 2I love this quote so much that I put it on my website , but it's an Alan Watts quote . It reads it reads the Zen gardener is not interfering with nature because he is nature and he cultivates as if not cultivating . Thus , the garden is at once highly artificial and extremely natural . It's kind of a , it's a little bit of a mind explosion , I think . For me it it's meaningful to me because it's the twofold thing , saying that the Zen gardener doesn't fear interfering with nature because he is nature . And that's like being an Enneagram , for this is a part of my probably my hard wiring and I would imagine , for your listeners , I'm sure there are people listening who don't really feel like they're a part of this world or who don't belong to it . But that piece of the thing that the Zen gardener is he doesn't interfere with nature because he is nature .
Speaker 2I came out of this world , I belong here . Where else would I have come from ? Came from nature . So I am nature . And then the other piece of it is um , is that sometimes these things that seem totally natural , like , uh , like a record or a , or a movie or a television show or a . You know , creative projects um gardens , if you will , um uh are are highly , highly artificial environments . That art is highly artificial but paradoxically , because the artist is nature , it's also nature , it's at once highly artificial and totally natural . Yes , so there's your paradoxical quote .
Speaker 1Very good , thanks , alan . Very good , thank you very much . Thank you , alan Watts . All right , so , matt , thank you so much for this opportunity . I have one last question for you . I always ask our guests who they think could be a future guest on the podcast , and so I ask you , who do you think will be a good future guest here on Journey Talks Podcast ?
Speaker 2Man , I think you would have a blast talking to Dan Hasseltine . Let's do it . I think I will connect you guys because Cause he's he's also this kind of guy . Yeah , He'd be great .
Speaker 1I'll connect you . Okay , let's do it . Let's do it Well . Listeners , thank you so much for paying attention and for tuning in . Matt , I cannot thank you enough .
Speaker 1This was a long time coming and it is clearly , at least for me , the beginning of many , many more great conversations . I knew this was going to be a great time and I love the opportunity to get to know you more . Thank you for sharing , thank you for your vulnerability and thank you for giving us access to that beautiful sacredness , to that beautiful garden that you are , you know , for letting us in and to see God through your lenses and to connect in the ways in which spirit , energy , life continues to move through you and granted us your music , your presence . So , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you so much . All right , listeners , tune in . I look forward to connecting with you at our next episode . This is Journey Talks Podcast , your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration . See you next time . Thank you for watching . Make sure you like and subscribe to our channel , share your feedback , hit that notification bell and let's keep the conversation going .