Speaker 1: 0:00

The Journey Talks Podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration, hosted by Jorge Gonzalez. Hello and welcome to Journey Talks Podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. My name is Jorge Gonzalez and I am your host. I am convinced that behind every gratitude, there is a powerful story waiting to be told. Through this podcast, I want to create a space where we can share these stories and inspire one another.

Speaker 1: 0:33

As humans, we all share one thing in common, and that is the experience of being alive. We're all together on this journey we call life, and along the way we meet people and go through situations that leave a footprint in us. Some have a very short stay, while others hanging there with us for a little longer. Who are the people? What were the situations in our lives that have opened doors for transformation and helped us become the person we are today? Through this podcast, I will be interviewing guests with stories of gratitude. My hope is that our willingness to reconnect with these stories will help us celebrate our shared humanity and give us an opportunity to reconnect with the unconditional love we all have access to from within additional love we all have access to from within.

Speaker 1: 1:29

Today's guest is someone that was present at one of the most pivotal moments and chapters in my life. This was the time right after I finished a master's in theology, I was about to get married and, in a time of transition in my life, I was 26 years old. I needed to find a job and found this opportunity to complete a continual degree in pastoral care as a hospital chaplain. I might have been able to answer challenging questions about theology and church history, but I had yet to learn very important lessons about myself and my humanity.

Speaker 1: 2:03

He created and offered a space for me where I was able to get to know myself at a deeper level. I've always been a seeker, and perhaps that's one of the main things that led me to study theology. However, I had no idea how to ask the kind of questions that would allow me to understand more complex aspects of my personality and how these traits show up in my interactions and relationships. With his acute listening skills, gracious curiosity and non-anxious presence, he walked side by side with me as I was developing a sense of pastoral identity, but, more importantly, he helped me grow into an adult.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Originally from Germany and living in the United States for over 30 years, he is now the director of the chaplaincy services at University of Louisville Health in Louisville, kentucky, and associate clinical professor of medicine at University of Louisville. He is an ACPE certified educator and a board certified chaplain in the Association of Professional Chaplains. Besides being a theologian and educator of pastors and chaplains, he is a music lover, a guitar player and luthier. I consider him not only a mentor but a friend. Join me in welcoming the one and only Frank Wogan. Frank, welcome to Journey Talks Podcast, podcast, and thank you for accepting this invitation. How are you?

Speaker 3: 3:27

Thank you for having me. I'm good. This is a good time in Louisville and a good time in my life. It's Derby next week in Louisville. It's Derby yes, there are a lot of celebrations going on. Actually, half a block from here right now, the marathon is going on and all the runners are running down the street.

Speaker 1: 3:45

amazing did you did you ever did the half or the full marathon at all?

Speaker 3: 3:50

no, that's not for me. I I cheered on my daughters um, I'm not. I'm not a runner.

Speaker 1: 3:57

I love to cheer on those who do I think the city really just rallies up around that. It's such a collective experience. Right, it's Thunder over Louisville which happened last week Right. And then the race, and then next week Derby, which is the whole city really just comes together.

Speaker 3: 4:13

The parade is going on tomorrow and you know the world is coming to Louisville and for two weeks we're celebrating ourselves and the Derby.

Speaker 1: 4:22

All right, frank. What is going on with you lately?

Speaker 3: 4:26

Well, I published a book. That's probably the biggest thing. It came out this week. It's been four years in the making. It came out two weeks early and so that was a lot of fun to get all the texts and emails from friends who said I got my copy. Well, I have my copy as well.

Speaker 2: 4:47

We're going to talk about this in a little bit. The.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Empathic God, a clinical theology of atonement Very, very interesting. We're going to go a little bit deeper into this in a bit. Frank, I so appreciate your time and the opportunity that you give me to entertain these questions. This podcast is all about sharing stories of gratitude, but the gratitude that comes as a result of moments of growth and transformation in our lives. You certainly helped me enter and navigate these kinds of spaces with such grace and love. I'll be so honored if you could open your heart and share some of your gratitude stories with me and our audience. Are you down for it?

Speaker 3: 5:29

All right, let's do it.

Speaker 1: 5:31

All right, Well, Frank, the first question. I usually have the same questions for all the guests, because I'm very curious to see the consistency or differences in some of these responses. The first question that I have for you is what is gratitude you and what is your relationship with it?

Speaker 3: 5:52

Well, first of all, I have to say it's something that I had to learn. Gratitude it's something that I had to learn, even though I remember growing up I had to say thank you for every present that I got. But that's not gratitude necessarily, because I also grew up with very strict work ethics and the idea that you have to work hard to make life happen for you. That had to do with my parents. They came out of the war. They were the generation who rebuilt Germany. There was a lot of hard work and I'm grateful for that. But it also didn't teach me to see life as a gift.

Speaker 3: 6:34

Life was something I had to build and construct and work hard for. So I had to learn that the most important things are. I cannot work to make them happen. You know, like relationship. Well, you have to work on relationship, but love and grace and acceptance and all that that's really important and helps you to grow and to be connected. So I guess and I'm still working I still have to work on it and be very intentional about it. I do that at work. Every other day I write an email to a staff person and tell them what I'm grateful for in them, for their work so to do that. It doesn't happen automatically for me, so it's something I had to learn. It means for me that life is a gift. It has to do with grace, gratitude with grace that comes my way.

Speaker 1: 7:30

So can you tell me a little bit more about that? I resonate with what you're saying. I resonate with the fact that it's something that you have to learn. I resonate with the fact that you came from an environment where you were expected to behave in a certain way, but internally there was no room to consider the depth of what gratitude can be or where it comes from energetically. I'm very curious to hear more about your connection of gratitude and grace. Would you mind expanding a little bit more on it?

Speaker 3: 7:59

Grace is something that I cannot earn and that has to come towards me from outside, that somebody grants to me. I think it's something that I can internalize, that I can learn how to give myself grace, but first of all it has to come from somebody else, and essentially it means for me to be accepted the way I am. That's grace at its core. There's somebody who says I'm accepting you, I'm welcoming you the way you are. That's really, for me, what my faith is about too. That's at the heart of my faith.

Speaker 1: 8:55

And so that I think grows gratitude, if I let that sink in. I love how your answer implies a connection, the fact that it comes from somebody and you receive it. It brings a moment of union and I love the undertone of your answer connected to that interaction. At the end of the day, as a human species, we thrive when we are in community. You know it's a relationship Absolutely Frank. Now that you have answered a little and we have dived a little bit deep into this, what are you most grateful for?

Speaker 3: 9:47

for 34 and she's still sticking with me and is somebody who has offered a lot of grace through the years and challenge our daughters, hannah and erin. Their young adults on their own and they still want to talk to us. Erin just came from berlin this week to be with us for derby and for hannah's graduation. Her older sister graduates from grad school in two weeks. So, yeah, they are the greatest gift in my life Opportunities that I've had through the years and all of those have to do with people, people who have offered me opportunities or helped me to learn or given me a chance to do something that helped me to grow, chance to do something that helped me to grow. I mean, if you had asked me 36 years ago, I would never have guessed that I will be in Louisville, married with two daughters, doing what I do write a book. I mean, all of those had to do with that journey, had to do with people who opened doors and provided opportunities.

Speaker 1: 10:45

Well, I think to say that I'm grateful for you is an understatement.

Speaker 3: 10:50

Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: 10:51

Frank, I was reading and we're going to go back to this later, but I just have to mention I was reading the introduction of your book.

Speaker 1: 10:57

I was blown away because it brought me back to those early stages of my adult life and it was such a powerful space that you provided for me and you witnessed for me.

Speaker 1: 11:09

I'm grateful for the ways in which you very graciously presented new models, new approaches, how to have relationships, how to handle fears, how to handle anxiety years, how to handle anxiety, how to handle my persona as a pastoral care provider. You model for me new ways of parenting. I'll never forget when you mentioned that you have never reprimanded your daughters physically, and that blew my mind, because in my context, unfortunately, it was not the case, and I'm not saying that my parents were abusive with me, but you were the first person in my life that had such a completely different approach to parenting, now that I've worked with kids for over 10 years and I've been in ministry for 20 years now, and so the concept of being gracious and providing a safe space in moments of vulnerability was something completely new. It's something that I adopted in my approach to working with youth and young adults and something that I've carried with me as I continue to work with kids, and even especially with kids. It's when your voice continued to ring true over the years for me.

Speaker 3: 12:31

I'm surprised that you remember that conversation. I remember it.

Speaker 2: 12:35

Well, yeah, it was a good conversation. Yes, it was good. It was good, and I hope that this conversation is refreshing for those who are listening.

Speaker 1: 12:45

Good, it was good, and I hope that this conversation is refreshing for those who are listening, because I think there's there's. If there's something that continues to ring true and my experience as a human is is the power of, of, of creating safe space for relationships to be honest and to be your true self not just a pretty aspect, but to bring in also those areas of growth, those that that vulnerability that ultimately provides space for healing, and to cultivate what it's been known lately as the best version of yourself. Frank, you, you can you think of someone or remember a situation that you went through and now, looking back, you realize you know yourself better because of it.

Speaker 3: 13:29

Oh yeah, definitely, but where to start? I mean, for me, as far as for you, cpe was such a process. You know where I thought I knew who I was and then, when I went through clinical pastoral education, my supervisor the one that I would want to talk about is what happened, what I understood about my story by learning about trauma-informed care, because that has been a development within the last few years, and I learned about it in order to provide care right, that's how I read up on it. About it in order to provide care right, that's how I read up on it. And then I studied a book with friends also ACPE certified educator, and it's called my Grandmother's Hands. It was on the New York bestseller list, I think. It was written by a social worker, resmaa Manikim, and it's primarily about racial trauma and intergenerational trauma, but it focuses on the body and how trauma gets interred in the body, and I've never had a real good relationship with my body. I mean, it was never that much part of myself For periods of my life I didn't treat it really well. That look at trauma helped me to remember. Periods of my life I didn't treat it really well.

Speaker 3: 14:50

That look at trauma helped me to remember, to look at a piece of my own story that I really haven't looked at in a long time, and that is my birth story, which was a difficult one and a traumatic one in the sense that I was born two months early due to a medical complication and neither my mother nor I were supposed to survive. I made it into a medical textbook as a child. When I went to the doctor he pulled it out every time and showed me. So it became this story of fame in a way. But then I stopped telling that piece of my story.

Speaker 3: 15:24

But then I stopped telling that piece of my story, but looking at it through the lens of trauma that gets interred in the body, because what I understood? I had a traumatic birth. I came into the world and experiencing trauma, not being held. For seven weeks I was in an incubator. I think it helped me to feel compassion for that preemie. It was not a famous preemie, it was somebody who needed compassion and didn't need to be pushed harder or get the next degree. That happened probably about two years ago, after 59 years or 58 years, to understand my birth in a very different light.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Frank, thank you for sharing that important and vulnerable part of your story. I remember you brought it up at one point in our classes because part of the steps of doing CPE and understanding the process is understanding your story. You're the family of origin and understanding who you are. It's fascinating to hear that you can look back at that story with new perspective and it has, instead of adding a burden to your life, it has brought a level of identity and freedom that speaks very highly. I appreciate you sharing that story.

Speaker 3: 17:01

Yeah, for a long time I think it was a story, whether I shared it or not, but for me it was a story that pushed me to beat the odds, to survive, to be strong, accomplish something Some things that I have accomplished I've probably accomplished because of it. But to look at it as a story of vulnerability and to accept that vulnerability, not to cover it or to survive it, but it's just what it is.

Speaker 1: 17:28

I love when you said that you were able to have compassion for yourself and to look at that part of your story with compassion, to access that part in your psyche. I feel like a lot of things have to be in place for you to get to that foundation, to look back at something that, like you said, it has served you in many ways but at other times has put you in a predicament that has not necessarily put you in the best light. But you can now look at whatever pain or wounds or suffering behind that story with compassion. I can only imagine how that makes you feel from, perhaps, a place of healing and how you can provide that space for other people. You certainly did it for me when I was your student, a student under your care. So I appreciate that. Thank you care. So I appreciate that. Thank you, frank. So another question that I have for you is why do you do what you do? Why pastoral care, and what keeps you motivated to do this, and is gratitude connected to it in any way?

Speaker 3: 18:45

I'm going to ask it again why do you do what you do? Why pastor care? It's just, it's such a, it's needed, it's such, I want to say it's such a relevant ministry. I've been a pastor and I think that's important ministry these days, probably even more so than when I did it 30 years ago. But to be, you know, to enter into the lives of others you know I work at a level one trauma center, so we are there at the worst day in their lives and to be somebody who can come alongside, witness what's going on, give significance to it, it's a privilege to be in that place. And I have to say at this point in my life I don't do that much patient care anymore. I teach much more. I'm an administrator, I lead two departments, so there's a lot of HR administration, all of that. But tomorrow, sunday, I will work a first shift on the pager. I will be the chaplain, and the only chaplain in the house.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Do that once in a while on.

Speaker 3: 19:48

Sundays? Yeah, at least once a month. I will be there when people come in. They leave their house thinking this will be a day like every other day, and then something happens Somebody shoots them, a truck pulls over in their lane or whatever it is. Their life will never be the same. Yeah, so it is very, I think, a very relevant ministry to help. It's a ministry of healing wholeness that's how I think about healing to work as much towards wholeness as I can to connect people with their lives.

Speaker 1: 20:26

What part of you, sort of like, responded to that opportunity. How did that came for you?

Speaker 3: 20:33

Well, I wanted to be an Old Testament professor. That's what I wanted to be After I finished my studies in Hamburg the only scholarship that was available to study at the Hebrew University and I didn't get it, and so the next best thing was to get this postgraduate scholarship to come to the United States for a year and to study psychology and psychology of religion. That was another interest of mine back then. I came here for a year to get clinical training and take some classes and fell in love with it. I fell in love with clinical pastoral education back then because it was such a it seems so much more relevant as a, as an educational method, than standing behind a lectern and, you know, do what I thought I wanted to do. Right, that's when I fell in love with it, and I still like doing. A lot has changed. A lot has changed in cpe, and I have my critique of some of the changes, but then I sound like an old grumpy man when I talk about that it happens to all of us.

Speaker 1: 21:37

But I must say that I am so grateful that life brought you to this place. It's fascinating because I've been on the receiving end of your commitment to yourself and to your gifts. You provided for me and for many other chaplains and pastors a safe space to have an inquisitive mind and a place to really wrestle with your intellect and with your emotions. I could not agree more with you, with the whole notion and an embracement of clinical pastoral education. I mean, I feel like if the Christian tradition has something to say, it must incorporate the integration of all these different disciplines and how it provides a more accessible response to the human experience. It makes it more accessible, it provides a vocabulary where the experience of suffering, of fear, of shame, of guilt, of your shadow is embraced and accepted. It's a safe space. What would you say about that?

Speaker 3: 22:39

Well, right now I'm grateful for your words. I mean that feels rewarding of the work that I've done. We don't always know what kind of impact we have, so I thank you for that.

Speaker 1: 22:50

So tell me about you Tell me about your story, tell me about any wound you've had growing up, and my initial response immediately I had a perfect childhood.

Speaker 2: 23:09

My childhood was beautiful, it was great. And I now, you know, 15 years later, I can look back and I say man, you probably were so gracious with me, you were gracious with me, but I could see, think and say man, this young fella has an opportunity here to really explore a new facet of who he is, and you provided that space for me.

Speaker 1: 23:31

I was so immersed in the dynamics of my family of origin that I couldn't see how there were dynamics that needed attention. It was with you when I started exploring that. Seminary was great. I love seminary To study theology, the history of the church, greek and Hebrew phenomenal but the space that you and I provided for me, along with the peers that I work and study with, was a complete new territory.

Speaker 1: 23:58

It was the application of psychology, spiritual formation and theology, which, to me, was completely new. I still feel like it needs to be more present in the rhetoric, that it's presented collectively, and you know what I think. It inspired me, now that I work with children, to understand something that you bring in your book and I think this is the perfect segue to talk about your book and you're calling it. The word that you're using, I believe, is neurotheology or neurological theologies, which I think is fascinating understanding how, as a human species, we have developed the notion of God and the voices that have pointed out to us to pay attention to that aspect of the human experience, but, more importantly, the practices and the tools that help you to get to a place of homostasis and inner wisdom, compassion. I think they're fascinating. So I want to say thank you. I'm grateful for you because you were the first voice that graciously opened a door for me to enter a territory in my life and in my psyche and in my heart that I have never explored before. Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 25:17

Now let's talk about the book. Let's talk about the book. So the Empathic God, a clinical theology of atonement or atonement, just came out. I'm so thrilled about it. I just read the introduction and I was blown away. It brought me back to those early stages of my career. More importantly, it brought me back to that place where questions were accepted. It was okay to ask questions. I was encouraged to ask difficult questions and I was encouraged to explore a complexity of my personality that I had never been exposed to. So tell us a little bit about this book. What is the principle, what is the goal that you are trying to present, the proposal that you're trying to present? Tell us a little bit about the journey itself.

Speaker 3: 26:07

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. It came from different places. On the one hand, it distills what I've learned and thought over the last 30-something years in my work and it's my pandemic baby. As my spouse said, there wasn't much to do during the first months of the pandemic, so I wrote. It also came from a theological crisis, not a crisis of faith, but a theological crisis that I've had probably I don't know for a few years, where I didn't feel like I could really hold up and believe a very central tenet of the Christian faith which had to do with the cross and the crucifixion and the way that I've been taught about salvation. And I remember very clearly when that happened to me and it was at some point during Lent at the church where we sang a hymn that had to do with those images. That were traumatic images and I looked at the words and I thought if it wasn't a hymn, it would be a horror movie, but to be washed in blood. That's Cary, that's Stephen King, that's. And I think we've had this focus on the cross and what I argue is that that's a myopic reading of the Jesus story.

Speaker 3: 27:31

I believe that if my faith and practice is about healing, the theory behind that needs to be a therapeutic theology, and that's what I you know. You talked about neurotheology. It's not just that theology comes out of our brain. I think theology also shapes our brain and how we think. But images and metaphors and rituals, all of that feeds into the neuroplasticity of the brain and it shapes the brain in certain ways. So in order to do the work of healing, I think we need a therapeutic theology and that was at the heart of it. So what I propose and what I know from my work, is that the human condition is not primarily about guilt. That's not the greatest dilemma that we face, but that's what Christianity has argued. It's sort of. The work of Christ is about forgiveness, so it's about guilt. In my experience, in my own life and in the life of so many people that I worked with, a much more difficult dilemma is shame, and it goes much deeper and starts much earlier.

Speaker 3: 28:43

I started to think about the Jesus story, or the Jesus event, as I call it, the God event in the Jesus story. I thought what if it's not about guilt, but what if that's an answer to our shame and wants to help us out of our shame? The answer to guilt is forgiveness. Forgiveness, the answer to forgiveness, won't do anything for shame, right? I mean, I've heard that so many times from people. They say I know that God can forgive us, but I just cannot forgive myself. Well, what they say is it's shame, it's not about forgiveness. And the answer to shame, the healing response, the therapeutic response to shame, is empathy. To shame, the healing response, the therapeutic response to shame is empathy, a really deep understanding of another person that communicates acceptance. So I started to read that story, the Jesus story, through that lens. What if it's not an act of forgiveness but it's a life of empathy that wants to help us to move us beyond our shame? That's how I argued.

Speaker 3: 29:51

And then I applied clinical principles. We do in the clinic. I apply to theology. You start with human experience, not with dogma. You look at what is he like, you do interdisciplinary dialogue. It's not just about theology, it's also, you know, bring the other healing disciplines into the mix and into dialogue. And then what's the outcome? It needs to be outcome-oriented. There needs to be a praxis that goes with it. That's really what the book is about. It tries to construct a theological theory for spiritual care by reinterpreting that difficult doctrine of atonement.

Speaker 1: 30:35

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 30:36

I think we need, I want us to spend more time with this, because the concept of shame and that inner voice we all carry, that tendency that we have. We're so prone to always look at worst case scenario and sometimes that worst case scenario we are involved as the perpetrators of that, we're responsible for that, or something has happened to us that put us in that place of shame. How do we deal with that? What are the voices that provide a space to hold you in that place where you feel separated from the union, separated from the indwelling presence of God, if you want to continue to use that Christian vocabulary and expression? I think it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: 31:14

I'm curious to hear more about how creating that safe space to treat shame has provided healing. What are some examples of healing stories that come to mind? In your 30 plus years of an educator and as a chaplain and as a pastoral caregiver, I remember you introduced me to palliative care. You introduced me to the ministry of walking along someone facing, like you said, probably the most difficult moment in their lives, and so the moving away from guilt and creating that safe space. I'd be curious to hear more about what healing looks like for you, or what are the examples of healing that you've seen as you apply this approach into what you do?

Speaker 3: 32:08

that you've seen as you apply this approach into what you do. I mean for me it had to do. You know all theology is biographical, I believe. So I mean I'm writing about shame because I know it and in my own life I needed people who met me with acceptance and helped me open myself up to the parts of my life that I want to hide from. So for me, part of it is modeling to be open with my own vulnerability, shortcomings, ability to fail myself and others. I think that's that model, something for people to enter that space where they can open up. And then I mean that crucial ability to understand another story from the inside. But you know what I and I say? That's empathy, particularly the emotions around their experience and their story, and to be able to communicate that. I think that's the crucial healing aspect. A big part of that is curiosity Not to be certain about others. When I judge, I approach them with certainty, I pronounce my judgment. I know who they are, but to be curious about who they are.

Speaker 1: 33:36

That's really special because when I think of our society, our world, it's really hard because we feel so distant from that place. I think we operate from a very reactive space and I think, collectively, it's great that we are paying attention to the importance of psychological help and therapy. I'm a strong advocate for it. I think our supervision time when I was your student was no other thing but therapy. It was a safe space to entertain questions that otherwise I would have never entertained, and I think they were deeply rooted in vulnerability and in shame.

Speaker 1: 34:14

You know how do you continue to see this application of empathy as a tool for the growth of humanity and the integration of society? I noticed that in your book you try to use a vocabulary that is inclusive when I was your student, the issues that perhaps the church for those who are not necessarily churchgoers, I think you're still familiar with the phenomenon of human sexuality and who's included in the church and who's not included in the church community. You very intentionally put in your preface that you try to be very sensitive to the experiences of how our society continues to expand, and so the definition of inclusion is an ongoing thing. To me it's a live experience and phenomenon. Any words or thoughts out of your experience and presenting and doing this work that have provided insight or a strong desire to continue to advocate for this approach of integration and inclusion for all people when it comes to empathy and pastoral care.

Speaker 3: 35:26

Oh yeah, definitely. I mean that is one I'm sort of my heart beats for justice issues. I think there was a postscript in the book, 10 pages, and my editor let me write it as long as it needed. But she asked me can we take this part out, those 10 pages? Because she said that's really another book and if you want to write it let me know. And so I said okay, let's take it.

Speaker 3: 35:52

Maybe I'll write that other book, but it was called Becoming an Empathic Church and so in 10 pages I sort of outlined what I thought all of this could mean for the church.

Speaker 3: 36:03

Because this is more about clinical care, clinical spiritual care, I mean that can happen in the church.

Speaker 3: 36:06

Because this is more about clinical care, clinical spiritual care, I mean that can happen in the church.

Speaker 3: 36:10

But the broad thing and I think we need to change how we do church, at least how I know I've been part of the church for a long, long time, not as a pastor, but active in the church and sort of the thinking has been how do we get people to come into the church, to come join us, right, get into the rows and then we some people we want and others we don't want maybe I think if it's about being an empathic church, it's one to listen to stories, to allow people to share their stories, whatever the story is, and to create space for that.

Speaker 3: 36:56

The other part is it's not about getting people to come into our walls, but it's entering into their lives and communities. To enter into another person's experience, not have them come and do things like we do, but to go into the communities and to work towards wholeness in communities, whatever that might look like, it will mean to partner with others that we are not used to partnering with, and not to think that our voice is the most important voice and that we have the perspective or the truth, but the other truths out there that we can join. So those are some thoughts I have.

Speaker 1: 37:44

That makes me think of working with children and families. Some of the people I work with are Christians, others are not Christian at all. Some of them are Hindus, other Muslims, other spiritual, and so I find myself with this responsibility, I feel like, of what is it that? What are the seeds we're planting in the human psyche of these young children that would hopefully bloom into a healthy curiosity rooted in an understanding that, as a human species, we are trying to find meaning and answers for these big questions? Right, and so I cannot repeat myself enough in my gratitude to what you exposed me to, because I try to implement it into what I do with the students and the families.

Speaker 1: 38:38

I appreciate that voices like yours and other theologians are having this commitment to really continue to bring it up at the forefront of a new conversation, a conversation that, regardless, if I think our responsibility as Christians or the followers of the teachings of Jesus like I consider myself a follower of the teachings of Jesus we have a sense of responsibility to continue to expand our definitions of empathy, inclusion, community, empathy, inclusion, community, but, more importantly, rooted in the opportunity to recognize your own humanity, you know and accept all of that that comes with it, and so that brings us into a very practical clinical approach.

Speaker 1: 39:22

Right, you talked earlier about trauma-informed therapy, and that has been a very healthy companion for me as well.

Speaker 1: 39:28

My wife was a former marriage and family therapist, so we both were very blessed, or were on the receiving end, of having those tools that helped us understand that the conflict that were emerging in our relationships or in our individual lives could not be separated from that immediate program that it's available to us or it's what we operate from, and so I love the fact that you, at the beginning of the book, you mentioned how expressions of faith or spirituality are a phenomenon of the human experience in historical context, and you use a phrase in the book like I think and correct me if I'm wrong, please engage with me here you make a point of we have a new expression, we know the human condition in a new way.

Speaker 1: 40:14

I think that's the I'm paraphrasing your words, but what are your thoughts around it? I think it's necessary to continue to expand this dialogue, and that makes me think of those interdisciplinary conversations that we had and that you continue to expand this dialogue and that makes me think of those interdisciplinary conversations that we had and that you continue to provide for your students and at the hospital that we involve so many different disciplines that understand and are curious about the human condition, understanding that we all bring a story and we're participants of a collective context that perpetuates systems of sometimes oppression, sometimes liberation, how do you feel it's necessary to continue to keep this Christian message relevant and as a tool that people can use and embrace for themselves?

Speaker 3: 41:06

Right, and when you say human condition and when I write about it, I mean there's this sort of it's this abstract thing, but it is expressed very uniquely in each story, right, and the people that I meet. But right now I would say this thinking and message about salvation, not as going to heaven or my individual spiritual well-being, but as salvation, as wholeness. I think it's more needed than ever because I see separation everywhere Division in the Near East, division in this country I can go to Germany and there are lots of. I mean politically, the time that we live in is a very divisive, divided existence. That we have it's partisan.

Speaker 3: 42:02

I think that message and the work towards creating wholeness in the sense of bringing communities, bringing what is fragmented together, both individually, therapeutically, when we do the individual work with people, but also systemically and politically within communities, it's more needed than ever and I think that is the Christian message. It's about moving from separation to connection and creating, providing space for relationship and for people to become whole and communities to become whole. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think it's a timely message. My voice is not the only one. There are many out there that are much more important and speak with more truth and knowledge, but I added mine.

Speaker 1: 43:02

Well, thank you, You're very humble about it. I think your voice has something very special to offer and I just want to encourage people listen. If you don't have to necessarily be a Christian, if you happen to be Christian, if you happen to be involved in the church or ministry, you need to get this book. It's very eye-opening, it's full of grace. I've always been surprised by your intellect, Frank. I still remember I had to read pages two or three times to understand and make sure I was keeping up with everything. But it's because it's so rich in some of those intrinsical aspects of what has become Christian theology and you provide a refreshing way of looking at it for the future and for our time. So, thank you very much. Check this out. The Empathic God, Clinical Theology of Atonement. Frank, in closing, what is a special quote or figure that has inspired you lately or throughout your life?

Speaker 3: 43:59

Well, let's go with lately. I mean, I have many throughout my life. If you ask me, I go to Dietrich Bonner for he's one of my heroes. Very recently I heard a sermon by a womanist theologian pastor, mia McLean, pastor of Riverside Baptist Church in Washington DC, and she preached at the Alliance of Baptists meeting a couple of weeks ago in Charlotte and I was there. It was a challenging sermon because it was not a sermon for white people to sit through and feel comfortable. But I think there were a lot of speeches Jesus gave that weren't comfortable.

Speaker 3: 44:40

But she asked one sentence that I took and I'm living with right now. She said I don't need your judgment. I don't need to have my theology judged by white people. What I need to know is how is God real in your soul? That question, I thought that is so profound Because I didn't know how to answer that right away. I've just written a theology book and I cannot answer this question very quickly. So how is God real in your soul? So I ask myself that question regularly since then and what I realize is it's differently. Sometimes God is real as compassion it comes. Sometimes God is real as compassion and sometimes God is real through confrontation or conviction, but I think it's a question that helps me to focus spiritually and to make theology not just something, not just a theory, but make it about me. So that's a question, jorge, that I would ask you.

Speaker 1: 45:56

How is God real in your soul? First of all, thank you for extending the question. My immediate response has to be integration, integrations of my full humanity and how I can look at myself with compassion, but with the sense of responsibility that I can always grow and improve, not only for myself but for the collective around me, whether that is my family unit, my marriage, my work, my friends, my role in society. I think that will be it. How is God present in my soul?

Speaker 1: 46:38

I have to allow myself permission to embrace all these stories that have been part of the human civilization. Embrace all these stories that have been part of the human civilization. We see it in all different civilizations, this relationship between the divine and the human experience. Instead of looking at it like what you said. I think this answer is instructed by my experience of working with you, and that has to be to have compassion with myself and to really receive it, to look at my areas of growth and to have compassion to that little child that was exposed to certain things that, for whatever reason, that was my story, that was my curriculum, that was what I people, and to creation. I think that's my answer.

Speaker 2: 47:41

Thank you for asking me that's a good question. That's a good, good question.

Speaker 1: 47:48

All right, Frank, I always ask our guests who they think would be a future guest here on Journey Talks podcast. Who do you think would be a potential good person to bring in to continue this conversation about gratitude and the human experience?

Speaker 3: 48:05

I think you would enjoy having Carrie Newcomer on the podcast. Do you know her?

Speaker 2: 48:14

No.

Speaker 3: 48:14

She's a singer-songwriter from Bloomington, indiana. She's been around for a while. She writes very beautiful poetic spiritual music. Has done a lot of work with Parker Palmer oh great, I think they do a podcast together. Actually, carrie Newcomer, she wrote one of the editorial reviews in the front of the book. You can see it there. I think she would be a wonderful conversation partner about gratitude. I think she has a recent album out, a new one. She's a wonderful person, wonderful musician, wonderful poet.

Speaker 1: 48:51

Frank, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for your time, thank you for making space for me and to allow me to entertain these questions with you, and thank you for this conversation. It's been phenomenal. It's a treat for me. I'm thankful for what you did for me. You were such a necessary mentor in my life. You always offer me not only a mentorship, but you also offer me a friendship. I wish nothing but the best to you, especially as you are celebrating so many milestones in your career, with the book and with your family. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 49:24

I look forward to having you on the podcast again if you are interested. I think we can expand these questions and conversations, especially if you entertain this notion and idea of writing a second book. I think it'll be very cool to do that Wonderful. Well, friends, this has been another episode of Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. I look forward to connecting with you in the next episode. Take care. Thank you for watching, make sure you like and subscribe to our channel, share your feedback, hit that notification bell and let's keep the conversation going.