Speaker 1: 0:01

The Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration, hosted by Jorge Gonzalez. Hello and welcome to Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. My name is Jorge Zayago Gonzalez and I am your host. I am convinced that behind every gratitude, there's a powerful story waiting to be told, and through this podcast, I want to create a space where we can share these stories and inspire one another. As humans, we all share one thing in common, and that is the experience of being alive. We're all together on this journey we call life and we meet people, go through situations that somehow they live a footprint in our lives. The question for me is who are these people, what were the situations that opened a door for transformation right, and how that creates an impact in us that shapes us in the person that we are today. Some of these people hang in there for a little longer, others have a very short period of time and, regardless, I wonder how is it that we can learn from these experiences and move on with our lives and make this world a better place? Through this podcast, I will be interviewing guests with stories of gratitude, but I'm talking about the gratitude that transforms our lives, and my hope is that our willingness to reconnect with these stories will help us celebrate our shared humanity and give us an opportunity to reconnect with the unconditional love we have access to from within.

Speaker 1: 1:37

I'm so excited about today's guest. In my opinion, he is an example of commitment, humbleness, dedication, vision and heart. In his career as a racing car driver, he won the British Formula 3 Championship in 1998, the third place and Masters Formula 3, and over the years, he maintained a presence in the car driver scenes for over about 12 years or so. These days, he is focusing his energy on something very, very special, and that is the conservation of wildlife, especially the life of jaguars and man wolves in Brazil, in an area called the Pantanal, and he is doing this through his organization, the On Safari Association. He's a father, he's a husband, he's a friend, but ultimately he is a human being living in an intentional relationship with our planet and its bio. It is my joy and honor to introduce you and to present to you Mario Haberfeld. Mario, how are you doing today?

Speaker 2: 2:37

Hi, pastor Jorge, it's a pleasure to be here with you in one of your first episodes here. It's an honor to be your guest here and looking forward to talking to you.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Thank you so much. How are you doing today? How's things are going lately for you all?

Speaker 2: 2:52

No, all good Back in Brazil. We met in Miami, my kids used to study with you and we moved to Brazil a couple years ago or so and enjoying our home country with all its difficulties. But it's nice to be back.

Speaker 1: 3:13

That's life right, holding the tension of all those dichotomies and trying to make meaning out of it and make the best out of it huh.

Speaker 2: 3:20

Yeah, but I mean, it's nice to be back in the end of the day in Brazil for what I do. I think we're going to talk more about it, but it's the most biodiverse country in the world and it's nice to be here and being able to enjoy this part of it.

Speaker 1: 3:41

This is great. Well, I said it earlier but I'll repeat it again this podcast is all about sharing stories of gratitude, but the gratitude that comes is a result of those moments of transformation in our lives that they just change us right. I know you share a very particular perspective and view of the world in terms of your commitment to making this world a better place and honor and the beauty of nature and its biome, and I'll be so honored if you open up your heart and your mind once again to share those stories of gratitude and your journey with me and our audience. Are you down?

Speaker 2: 4:12

Yeah, for sure. It's again a pleasure to be with you guys.

Speaker 1: 4:16

Let's do it so very quickly. Tell me a little bit about your journey. You started as a car driver in Formula, and what drawn you to that in the first place? Because you made a huge switch from being in a very exhilarating approach to life and literally you're going super fast in a machine that it can actually take your life in a split of seconds right and all of a sudden you're transitioning into something more quiet, more poised. That needs intentional presence. So tell me a little bit about your journey.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Yeah, well, I was. I have to say, I consider myself a very lucky person. Apart from family, professionally I always had two passions in my life, which was car racing and conservation, and I'm very thankful that I was able to I'm still, are still I'm able to work with both of these passions. So I started by being a race car driver. I raced for nearly 20 years and started in Brazil, living 10 years in Europe and then moving to the US to racing Indy cars. That's how we met and we I retired from racing 2008, but decided to keep living in the US. I think it was a great experience for the kids, something that would be very hard to give them Otherwise. The you know the knowledge of the US, of speaking English and Miami also Spanish. So now they are like tri-tri-lingual, whatever you say, so they can speak all the languages. And when I retired from racing, I wanted to work with my other passion, which was conservation. I think that started back when I was 12 years old. My dad took me to Africa on safari, and those times it wasn't a very usual thing to go to Africa on safari. It was a lot simpler than they are today. So we just spent about two weeks in the back of a truck driving through the Serengeti National Park in Tanzania, and we would stop at night. Each one would put up their tent, only have a kind of a shower when we found the waterfall. So it was a great experience for a young kid.

Speaker 2: 6:50

I spent my 12 years bursting inside the Gorogoro crater, which is one of the wonders of this world, so I always had this passion for wildlife. When I stopped racing, I wanted to work with wildlife, with conservation. I had no idea how to do it In the end of the day, I don't have any formal education as a biologist or a vet or anything like that so I decided to travel the world and see all the animals that I always wanted to see in nature. No-transcript, I don't know pretty much any animal you can imagine. I found a way to go see them from I don't know polar bears in Canada or panda bears in China, in Antarctica to go to Antarctica. Tigers in India, gorillas in Uganda, or you name it. I found a way of going and seeing those animals in their natural habitat and from there it's where the idea came to create Onsafari, which is this organization I founded back in 2011 and still running today.

Speaker 2: 8:04

What I found on most of those trips was that ecotourism is what was saving a lot of these animals, because through ecotourism these animals start to have, you know, like an economic value. Unfortunately, I think there are a few crazy people like me that just love wildlife because I do and unfortunately to these days a lot of people still put money in the first place. So if we think about it, I mean, if jaguars go extinct, for most people nothing is going to change. Now, if these jaguars can improve their lives, then people start to conserve. So we started in Pantanal. Pantanal is the smallest biome in Brazil, but it's the size of Belgium, switzerland and Austria put together and it's the largest wetland in the world. So it's similar to the Everglades, but much bigger.

Speaker 2: 9:10

And the idea was to make jaguars viewable by people so you could go on safari, like you go in Africa to see lions and leopards and see jaguars. It was a huge challenge. The Pantanal is about 95% privately owned and in all this land you have cattle ranching and obviously when you put cattle and jaguars, sometimes the jaguars prey on the cattle and farmers go and kill jaguars, despite being illegal to hunt in Brazil since 1967. But, like I said, it's a huge area and possible to police. So it was a matter of changing people's mindset for them to understand that through the jaguars it can improve their lives, and that way they will start to protect these animals. And by protecting jaguars, which sit on the top of the food chain, you're protecting actually the whole biome. So in a nutshell, that's how it started.

Speaker 1: 10:17

Well, thank you, that is a powerful story on its own. That reminded me, as you were unpacking the birth of Anzafari and your passion to be near nature and near these animals, that this is their home. We forget that, as humans, we share this earth with them.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Yeah, exactly, humans are very greedy, or whatever the world is, that we think we own the world. Unfortunately, I think, in my opinion, unfortunately we are very powerful, very smart, and we can actually own this world, but we have to to think about the other beings that share the world with us, and it's not fair just to destroy everything for our own good and not care about everything else that was actually here much before us. So the whole idea of Asaharis is showing that humans and animals can coexist peacefully and actually be beneficial for one another.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Yeah, your words are bringing me back to a very powerful memory that I have for the listeners. So I am Puerto Rican, I was born in Puerto Rico, I lived there until I was 23 years old, but in my early 20s, prior to leaving Puerto Rico, I had the opportunity to go to the Amazons. And I'll never forget, mario, when I was in the middle of the Orinoco River in Venezuela. And all of a sudden, mario, I hear orangutans, orangutans right, and I heard them at a distance and for the first time in my life, even though I was born and raised in the, in the, in Tropico, right in the equator, which, of course, I was surrounded by animals and whatnot.

Speaker 1: 12:16

But the depth of their sounds really brought me back to it, introduced me to a different level of my humanity, if that makes sense. And so it was very powerful to be connected to nature, to understand that there's a very particular relationship that we have. I was actually very small in that space, you know, I was not the all, the all in all. You know, as a human being, I'm intelligent, and perhaps I consider myself more intelligent than these animals in this setting, but the truth is no, I depended on my, on the, on a balanced relationship. I've depended I was dependent on being humble and recognize that I'm sharing this space with them. It was really powerful and I'm so glad you're that behind this. On Safari Association, you have this at the core of the of its value.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Yeah, I think, like you said, this kind of experiences in the Amazon or any wild place it's very, it makes you feel very humble and I think it's a great experience for everyone to have to go on holidays with the family, to be in nature. You know it's, it's a way going, doing ecotourism and safaris and things like that is a way that everybody connects to each other and enjoy nature. I think it's much better experience than going to a big city that each one wants to do a different thing and you end up not seeing your family for the whole holiday. So being being nature, it's definitely, for me, the best thing. So even I'm in Sao Paulo today, a big city. Our office is here, not a fantastic place, but I try to spend a lot of my time in the wild and normally with our projects we work during the day, but just by knowing that in the end of the day you can go out and see and see nature and being immersed into nature, it makes everything worthwhile.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Well, this podcast is all about stories of gratitude, and, as you were introducing yourself and you were unpacking the birth of this vision, you mentioned something really powerful, and that is the experience that your father gave you on your 12th birthday. And so what a magical story, right? I'm sure you are grateful for that, but my question to you is precisely that what are you most grateful for in your life?

Speaker 2: 15:01

I think again to have the opportunity to do what I love. You know, you see so many people that have to work in something they don't enjoy just to make ends meet, and I think one of the things I'm most grateful for is that. You know I was able to raise cars, be successful in my career, that I really dreamed of being a race car driver when I was a kid and once that was done, to be able to slow down in a way, like I mentioned in the beginning, and work with nature, which is my other passion. So obviously, thank you for my family, for my father, to have inspired me, unknowingly, I guess, when I was 12 years old, and then today I can still enjoy what I do every day and actually make a difference to the world. I mean, I always say you know, racing cars and being a race car driver it's fun. It's a lot of a drama, dremeling, glamorous in a certain way.

Speaker 2: 16:23

But it's quite of a selfish sport, right? You're there to win for yourself or your team, maybe for your sponsors. So now I feel much better, much more grateful that what I'm doing it's not for me, or I think it's for the next generations stimulating people to conserve the environment and teaching them about the environment, the animals and so forth in a way that people actually enjoy being in nature and protect what the most valuable thing we have, right, because without nature we wouldn't be here. So, yeah, I feel grateful that I can enjoy my life that way.

Speaker 1: 17:11

Wow, you said so many things and that makes me think of a couple of things.

Speaker 1: 17:18

You know you mentioned that I used to work with your kids and, yeah, part of my job is to be one of the many voices that young people have in their lives as they go through their journey of life.

Speaker 1: 17:33

Right, and particularly in my case, it's from a spiritual perspective, but I've always been intrigued and understood over the years that there's something very special when you are able to find your calling, whatever moves you, and how do you use that in your knowledge, your experience and your areas of growth in order to make this world a better place, in order to raise a greater sense of awareness and consciousness and people.

Speaker 1: 18:02

And so it's fascinating because I hear in what you're saying the opportunity that you had to combine those two things, and it's interesting, right, because many people might say, well, that's a privilege, and it may well be a privilege, but the question for me is what do we do with that right? And you have been very fortunate to combine them in such a way that it creates more opportunities for people to hone in into this, to really preserve our nature and, like you say, provide for future generations. Let me ask you this, mario can you think of someone or can you remember a situation that you went through and looking back, you realized that you know yourself better because you went through this situation, and in what way the situation helped you expand your understanding of life.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Yeah, I think again, this trip that I did when I was 12 years old is, I believe I always, as a kid, I wanted to be a veterinarian. I always liked animals. I ended up becoming a race car driver, which was great. But I think this trip to Africa when I was 12 really changed my life in more ways that I could imagine at the time. And since then I've been going to Africa every year of my life.

Speaker 2: 19:27

Nowadays, with work, I go more than once a year and I think, again, people need to try to find coming back a bit to what you said what they like to do right. I mean, in the end of the day, your professional life is not always easy, but if you do what you love, you have this willingness to struggle right and for the greater good, for the things you like. So I think this is how people become successful in life you have to find what you like to do and then give it 100% to it. And I think it's important to say that on safari, it was established to you know, initially to save jaguars and we started doing it by developing eco tours. But it's not only about jaguars or about nature, it's also about people, if we think about it on safari works in very remote places of Brazil. Now we have 10 bases across Brazil, but the whole idea is to give people from those areas a better opportunity of life.

Speaker 2: 20:46

So for example, in Pantanal, just to say one case, we have one of our guides. He used to actually hunt jaguars when he was young with his father. It's illegal and so forth, but we know it happens. Then he grew up, he became a cowboy and he used to make a very small salary being a cowboy. So on safari started, we trained him, he became a guide. Now he earns, I don't know, 10 times more than what he used to learn as a cowboy.

Speaker 2: 21:21

But more importantly, with EcoTourism you can create a lot of different jobs for men and women in an environment where cattle ranching, where only men had opportunities. So this guy nowadays he works, his wife works as a cook in the lodge, his daughter works as a cleaning lady at the lodge, his son works in maintenance. So his whole house income went up by almost 40 times. So and that's all thanks to Jaguars. And nowadays you tell him you're gonna hunt a jaguar, you better run, otherwise he'll hunt you. So I think it's nice that what we try to achieve here is a balance between man and wildlife, man and nature, and not just come in and just say, okay, let's just protect nature, and you know people have to find something else to do. The idea is to create a whole beneficial circle where everybody is involved.

Speaker 1: 22:32

I think we need to spend some time with that, because that is really powerful.

Speaker 1: 22:38

What you just shared and part of me is going to this idea of what happens, our ability to grow in our mindset and understanding of our circumstances, because in the example that you're sharing right now with that employer of yours, ultimately he's a human being and he was in his own journey of making a better life for himself and for his family. But this person was dealing with, for lack of a better word, the cards that were given. Now this opportunity. It's shifting things around. It's creating a better sense of awareness for his environment. It's actually allowing this human being to be more connected to his own humanity and in that humanity you are protecting and recognizing the sentient beings around you, and in this case, you know Jaguars and how powerful it is that at one point he was, for lack of a better word, desensitized from that. Now paying attention to and honoring that life, it's providing him an opportunity to better his circumstance, not only for himself but for his family as well, and it's creating a ripple effect of growth and that, to me, that's really fascinating.

Speaker 2: 23:58

Yeah, exactly, I think this is not my words, but I always say conservation is about people, because if there wasn't people then we didn't need to do conservation. So conservation, you need to improve people's life and all of that. Otherwise it's understandable that they're you know, they don't care, they just want to survive. Once you can improve everybody's life, then they also start to think about other important things like protecting nature and so forth. So I think ecotourism is very powerful in that way, because it's good for the animals that they stop being hunted, they start being known and people want to protect them. It's good for the environment, because to protect certain animals obviously you need to protect the areas where they live. And it's good for the people, so they get better chances in life, better jobs and better opportunities. And this is just if we're talking about the core business, let's say. But if you imagine areas where we work which are quite far away, just for people to get there, there's a whole chain of improvement, improvements that are made from artisans to, you know, people that sell produce, drivers, airplanes, whatever. So it's a whole big chain, you know, that benefits from it.

Speaker 2: 25:34

So I think from all the travels I've done, I noticed that, like South Africa, the biggest income of the whole country is tourism. If you think about Uganda, which is a country that most people never even heard about. The second most thing that brings more income to the country is ecotourism, and that falls through the gorillas. So people go there to to see gorillas, so you see the impact that one animal can have in the whole economy of the country.

Speaker 2: 26:18

Like I said in the beginning here, brazil is the most biodiverse country in the world. It has great temperatures year-round. When I went to see the gorillas sorry the polar bears was freezing like you can't imagine. So I think Brazil has a huge potential. I would say Africa, south Africa, kenya, tanzania these countries are a lot more developed than us in terms of ecotourism. They started 50 years ago with something quite new here in Brazil, but I think Brazil is starting to realize its potential and by realizing that we we're trying to change laws and influence governments to, you know, make things better in a way that this can persevere for for a lot of years and our children, grandchildren can can benefit from it.

Speaker 1: 27:17

You know, I hear you're talking and I honestly, I am mesmerized by the fact that you have been able to use your tools, your knowledge, your expertise, your experiences to expand a better world. Right, you have been able to, through your relationships and through your network, really exponentially grow what OnSafari is, and you have so many different partnerships right With major companies like Nike, land Rover, bank of America, the North Face, and you've even worked with David Attenberg, which I think is fascinating, right, and so you're like a quiet giant, you know, with the power to really bring people, the right people, into the room and to have really impactful conversations. How do you see the benefit of an opportunity like that has provided you with? What is your vision for OnSafari and how do you see this gift that you have to nurture these relationships as an opportunity to make this world a better place?

Speaker 2: 28:27

Yeah, I think, fortunately, we're at the right place at the right time. Maybe if we were starting this organization 30 years ago, people or companies wouldn't really care. I think finally, people and companies are realizing the importance of nature and then if we don't move quickly and change things the way things are going, we're not going to be here for much longer. So I think it's great to have the support of all those big companies and others that you mentioned. We were talking here before we started.

Speaker 2: 29:06

This shirt here behind me is the Brazilian football or in the US soccer team national team jersey that they play in the World Cup. You can't really see from here, but they made they have Jaguar prints all over the shirt. So if you think about it 11 years ago when I started this, if we would have Jaguar prints in the most well-known shirt in Brazil, I would never imagine. Maybe on this one you can see on the leaves you can see them. So, yeah, I think again, we're in the right place, the right time and trying to reach the most amount of people possible and I think again, some of my experience that I had with motor racing, with brand exposure, marketing and all of that helped me now in this conservation world. So, but I have to say I'm surprised positively surprised by this movement, that it's happening that people are genuinely more engaged in saving nature. So this is something that wasn't like that 11 years ago when we started, and I think it's getting stronger as time goes by.

Speaker 1: 30:38

Mario, this is so fascinating. I am just so I'll be. I have to be vulnerable with you, you know. I recognize that I, you know, didn't have certain opportunities growing up right and luckily I've been able to meet people like you and others that have expanded my horizons right and I just, I just have to go back to what we do with the gifts that we've been given and the tools that we develop over time in our lives. How do you, how does Anzafari, hone into that? What other things is Anzafari planning on doing in terms of the opportunities that they provide for anyone that is interested in ecotourism and the opportunities that they have to come to you all and have their experience, the benefits that they provide? You know we unpack this a little bit in the local community, but to what level? To what? How far you think this reach goes into people's lives?

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yeah, I think we started with ecotourism, which I think it has this whole benefit for everybody involved. We also have a part that does scientific research, which, in the end of the day, it's something very, a lot more technical. But we also have fronts in education where we produce books, documentaries and so forth, all with the environment in mind. We have a social part of Anzafari where we work with the communities in these areas that we work even with indigenous people. We have endowment funds to support these people. We work with local schools. We take kids from unprivileged areas on safari so they realize the beauty of the place they are. For them, it's normal for this animal or that animal. They don't realize how important that is. So we take them, these kids, on safari like a normal guest and they get this experience of seeing jaguars that close and so forth. We have a part which we call rewilding. We developed a method, let's say, where we now can get jaguars that ended up in zoos and rewild them and release them back in nature. So we've been doing that for eight years or so.

Speaker 2: 33:16

The newest part of Anzafari not so new anymore since 2019, we called forest. We look for land that's still pristine but under some kind of threat and strategic. Then we raised funds to purchase that land and develop it sustainably with ecotourism, carbon credits and things like that. But, more importantly, we buy a piece of land and then try to engage with neighbors to operate under the same rules let's say, sustainable rules and create huge wildlife corridors. So I think one of these lands that we bought back in 2020 was you guys working acres, so I don't know. It was like a 75,000 acre land. We managed to in the last three years to engage with neighbors and people in the area and now we created a one million hectare wildlife corridor, which may not be the biggest one of the largest wildlife private wildlife corridors in the world. So I think there's a lot of ways to engage and make this world a better place.

Speaker 1: 34:46

Mario. Why? Why Mario Haberfeld feels so compelled and moved? What is it within you that touches the core of who you are and you feel compelled to act in this way?

Speaker 2: 35:03

It's hard to say. I always liked animals and I always thought back to the beginning of the conversation that wasn't fair for us human to destroy the lives of others, right? Others mean animals or forests or whatever, so I don't know. For me it just makes a lot of sense. You know that we need to share and not to destroy and you know, just trying to show this feeling, this desire I have to save these wild places or save these animals with others, and hopefully I can persuade a few to think the same way.

Speaker 1: 35:52

Mario, you know Journey Talks, Journey Talks podcast, it's all about stories of gratitude and I'm so grateful that you have committed your life to this. You know, I'm grateful that live gave me the chance to meet you all and to be a part of your lives and, more importantly, to get to know you better through your passion and I hope that our listeners, if anybody's interested, if anybody's compelled to learn more about On Safari, make sure you go online. Would you mind giving us a bit of how can people can find you and learn more about what you guys do?

Speaker 2: 36:24

Yeah, so we're in all different social media platforms. It's oncafari, right? O-m-c-a-f-a-r-i. Or the website is oncafariorg. The name sounds strange in English, but onca actually means jaguar in Portuguese and fari is safari, so oncafari is like jaguar safari. Unfortunately, we didn't think that far when we created it to be a good name in English as well. But anyway, that's how people can find us.

Speaker 1: 37:05

That's great. I always like to ask our guest, mario, who has been a mentor, what has been a quote that has inspired you over the years or, at this precise point in your life, can you think of a quote or a mentor that has been impactful for you?

Speaker 2: 37:22

Yeah, I think two things. I think someone who has been a mentor for me in wildlife it's a good friend of mine called Roberto Clabin that told me that in life you need to have a project, you need to have a goal. He told me that just as I retired from racing cars and I was starting to find life quite boring, and I think he's 100% right. For me, retiring wasn't a great experience, because you retire and then what do you do? Why do you wake up? Obviously there's the kids, the wife, family and so forth, but you need to have a bigger goal in life of again trying to make this world a better place. So he has mentored me through all my conservation life.

Speaker 2: 38:17

And as a quote, there's a quote from Sir David Nettenborough, who we mentioned earlier. He's a very famous British biologist who narrates all those documentaries from BBC we actually done one with them about jaguar rewilding and so forth that he says something like if we're happy that our grandchildren will only see elephants in a picture book and I think it's a very powerful statement. You know, because unfortunately it doesn't work just for elephants. If you get jaguars or many other animals in the world, things don't change. That's unfortunately how it's going to be, and it would be very sad for our generation to carry this responsibility and tell our grandkids or whatever, that you know, somehow we were responsible for the disappearance of lots of different species. So again, I always have this thing that can't just say things. You have to do it. I felt compelled to. You know, try to help.

Speaker 1: 39:32

Wow, thank you. I'm glad you did, I'm glad you have and I'm glad you continue to do it. Let's see. I always ask people at the very end of every episode who do they think could be a potential guest on this podcast? Who do you think could be a potential guest?

Speaker 2: 39:50

in the future.

Speaker 2: 39:55

I think you should have. Yet You're going to have a lot of followers soon. I think it's a great format that you've created here to you know, to share stories of people in a nice way. So again, I'm grateful to be here and be part of your show. I know it's a high-esque, but maybe even David, that and Borough, one of these guys would be willing to talk to you and share their stories because you know they've lived through all these problems that I mentioned for much longer than I have and they have a lot of great stories that could be told, and I had the pleasure to listen to some of his or Jean Goudau, for instance, stories that are very, very, very inspiring. That could be great for lots of people to listen to.

Speaker 1: 41:00

Thank you. You know, and I hope that anyone listening out there really pays attention. You know, I in a spiritual sense, we always talk about paying attention to the still small voice, and I can imagine that all these people that you're naming with they have an ability to really hone into that voice, to tune into that voice, to be present with that voice, and I'm thankful that our conversation has created an opportunity for us to bring light to that and I hope it inspires other people, whether you're young and adult, that this conversation has opened up an awareness to the relationship that we have with each other. You know, and we talked earlier about our shared humanity, right, but that shared humanity comes with the responsibility of really taking care of this beautiful environment that we're a part of. So I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your time. I think there has been a phenomenal conversation and, as you mentioned earlier, guys, if you want to learn more about On Safari, please go to OnSafaricom. That is O-N-C-A-F-I-A-R-I OnSafaricom It'sorg actually org.

Speaker 1: 42:14

Okayorg OnSafariorg. O-n-c-a-f-a-r-iorg Mario, thank you so much. Blessings to you. For our listeners out there, this has been another episode of Journey Talks Podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. We look forward to seeing you next time.