Speaker 1: 0:01

The Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration, hosted by Jorge Gonzales. Greetings everybody. This is Jorge Gonzales, your host, with a brief trigger warning before we begin. The following episode addresses death, mental health issues, panic attacks, ptsd from war deployment, emotional, physical and sexual abuse. Please continue with discretion. If you are struggling with these dynamics, we encourage you to please seek professional help. Let's begin. Hello and welcome to Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. My name is Jorge Sallego Gonzales and I am your host.

Speaker 1: 0:48

I am convinced that behind every gratitude, there is a powerful story waiting to be told. Through this podcast, I want to create a space where we can reconnect with these stories and inspire one another. As humans, we all share one thing in common, and that is the experience of being alive. We are all together on this journey we call life, and along the way, we meet people that stay with us for a little short period of time and others linger for a little longer. Now, who are the people in our lives? What were the situations in our lives that opened doors for transformation and help us become the person we are today? Through this podcast, I will be interviewing guests with different stories of gratitude. My hope is that our willingness to reconnect with these stories will help us celebrate our shared humanity and give us an opportunity to reconnect with the unconditional love we all have access from within.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Our guest today is a fascinating person, a fascinating human being. He's like a brother to me. He is one of those people that comes to our lives, to our lives, just at the right time. We met in seminary, where we both pursued our master's degrees in theology. This was back in 2004, 2005. He is a lover of nature. He is the perfect guide for a hike, a camping. He played baseball when he was in college, he loves fishing, he is kind, he has a beautiful heart, he's funny and he has a very deep, inquisitive mind. This guy introduced me to some of the spiritual teachers that I have followed and still follow to this day, and while in seminary he also earned his Juris Doctor.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Throughout his professional career, he has served as assistant to Senators in Washington DC. He worked as advisor, slash attorney for the Presbyterian Church USA and has a longstanding commitment and advocacy for social justice, our Native American and Hispanic Latino communities, and is currently working very hard to preserve and protect our national parks. I can go on and on and on about how incredible this person is, but I will stop now and I'll introduce him and I'll let him tell you a little bit more about who he is Without further ado. Please join me in welcoming the one and only Andrew Black. Andrew, welcome to Journey Talks podcast. How are you doing today, hey?

Speaker 2: 3:26

I'm doing great. It's, of course, an honor and a pleasure to be with you here this morning when we're recording this podcast. Yeah, I'm doing really well and that's a lot to live into. That's quite the introduction. So you know, you can just call me Andrew and that's fine.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Well, andrew, you have been. I mean, I'm not lying. All the things that I've shared with you are real, and you continue to add to this beautiful, beautiful quote, unquote resume that you call your life, and I'm so grateful that I get to be a part of it. Why don't we go straight to it, andrew? Like I said, this podcast is all about sharing stories of gratitude, and I hope that these conversations, what they create, is just a space for us to reconnect with this deeper aspect that we have all from within. Right, and our friendship has granted us plenty of opportunities to explore what that looks like, and I hope that this will be a time where we can just share with others that journey that we have shared together. Again, this is another reason why this podcast is called Journey Talks podcast. I'll be so honored, andrew, if you share with us a little bit about your story and your stories of gratitude and where you are today. What's going on with you lately?

Speaker 2: 4:40

So you know, obviously one of the things we were just talking about was we were trying to record this podcast a couple hours ago, but I was delayed. And the reason I was delayed is because there was a bear about one block from where I live, up in a tree, and so I had to work with the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish and Animal Control from the city of Santa Fe to make sure that this bear was tranquilized and taken out of the tree and then we'll, of course, be let go into the wild. So I spent the last couple of hours outdoors and we forget that maybe we still live in the wild west and that this is this, even though we live in the city of Santa Fe, that it is still, first and foremost, home to the wildlife and that we have moved into their lands and their territory. So, yeah, there was a giant black bear in the tree, you know, just right outside of my house, and I worked with Animal Control and the police department and then, of course, the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish to make sure that that bear got tranquilized and was taken out safely and of course, you know that was the best case outcome the bear safe, it's doing fine, it's breathing well, it's doing great. I was tranquilized and removed and of course, you know, the worst case scenario could have been a guy down from that tree and got into people's yards and, you know, hurt somebody or some animal or pet. So it was really great to see this bear up close, was able to kind of help the game department and Animal Control at the scene, so it was really crazy.

Speaker 2: 6:06

My wife was driving to church this morning at about 7.45 and called me and said hey, you need to come down here immediately because there's a bear in the tree right outside of our house and they're going to need your help. So so I did. So I apologize for being late in recording this podcast, but that's it. That's just kind of the stuff that happens in my life. Man, what a way to wake up to a Sunday morning. Huh yeah, no, it's unique.

Speaker 2: 6:30

You know I love bears. I mean they're magnificent creatures, they're powerful, they're strong, you know they're, they're adaptable and so just being able to see one up close like that right there in my own neighborhood you know it's not something you get to see every day I've never seen a bear in my neighborhood. I've seen plenty of bobcats, I've seen coyotes, those kind of things, but to have a bear kind of right there running, you know, right there on the corner of an intersection in a tree, was surreal. So so, yeah, you know you're talking about starting with gratitude, that that's something you know just every day you wake up and then you never know what you're going to experience if you're open to life. And you know I've lived on this planet for 42 years and never in my life have I gotten a call that says there's a bear right outside of your house. Could you come help out? So you know it's life's an adventure, it's a journey, as your podcast says, and I'm just grateful to be with so many good people on it, including you.

Speaker 1: 7:20

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. All right, so why don't? Let me ask you. Let's just go straight to it. It's all about stories of gratitude, so let me ask you, andrew, what are you grateful for?

Speaker 2: 7:34

I think you know, first and foremost, the thing that I'm most grateful for, especially in the last couple of years, is my daughter, brooke. She was born two years ago, almost two years ago, you know, to this month. She was born in mid July and she is beautiful and fabulous and smart. And, you know, just being a father for the first time she's amazing, you know, and the journey that we've had during the pandemic, as parents and kind of her story has been, has been one of challenge and opportunity and gratitude really. But you know, I love being a dad. There's nothing I would trade in the world for it. And at the same time, you know it kicks my butt every day. You know a two year old toddler who's climbing and pulling. You know climbing on everything and pulling everything out of the drawers and you know picking up all kinds of words and just, you know the world is full of enchantment and mystery and at the same time, alchees, you know, when you pull something onto your foot. So you know it's got all that going on and you know when you go from those ups and downs of the emotions and that's the thing I love about her. I mean you, just what you see is what you get in that moment of chasing bubbles. She is the happiest and just the embodiment of true happiness and gratitude. And at the same time there's that next moment of you know her molars are coming in and she feels miserable and just wants to cry on your shoulder. And I love it. I mean it's just the it's.

Speaker 2: 8:54

You know, in those young children there's a sense of not just innocence and purity, but, you know, almost in a lot of ways they don't have that level of ego and masks that we all wear, you know, and learn to kind of.

Speaker 2: 9:07

You know society kind of conditions us to wear, but they're just kind of them.

Speaker 2: 9:10

True, they're true selves right on the outside, and you kind of see the formation of that too, though you get to see the formation of the ego and the personality and that sense of stuff too.

Speaker 2: 9:18

So it's just really amazing to watch all that too, to look at that not only from being a father and of course you know loving her as a father, but but just, you know, in that sense of human development, of watching how we kind of come to be and and you know the way that God created us to be. So it's just really fascinating to kind of watch all that unfold in front of your face and if you can step back and have perspective of that as a parent, then I think there is a lot more gratitude. Right, if it's easy to get, you know, lost in the moment when the you know the child picks up the mac and cheese box and dumps it all over the floor, but if you can kind of stand back from that moment and appreciate that sense of human development and mystery and you know the just the development of personality, it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: 10:00

Yeah, yeah, andrew, your daughter's name broke right. Yeah, brooke Rachel Marie Black. Brooke Rachel Marie Black, interesting story. Would it be okay if we talk a little bit about the conditions of her birth and what happens soon after her birth and the pandemic and all of that?

Speaker 2: 10:19

Absolutely so. So Brooke was. We found out when my wife Jen, who's a teacher and just an amazing human being, was pregnant with Brooke for about a couple months. We, you know, we went in for one of the kind of everyday ultrasounds that you've got to do, you know, as part of the prenatal care, and we found out that Brooke was going to be born with a rare condition called a nymphallus seal, and what that means in kind of late terms is that part of her intestines was going to be born outside of her body, and so they caught that early. And basically, you know, we found out about that in mid, mid to late January and she was due in July. So we had, you know, six months of kind of trying to figure out what the best thing to do around all that was, and the fortunate thing for us and we didn't really know until she was born, but the fortunate thing was that part of her intestines was born into her abdominal or into her um bellicle cord. So basically what that meant was that you know, there was those intestines and stuff like that were covered and they would, but she would have to go through surgery right after she was born, and so what we ended up having to do is actually relocate for a couple of months, really three months, to Colorado, where we you know and of course this is all happening during the pandemic right early on in the pandemic. You know the pandemic just started in March and we found all this out and of course I was incredibly stressful just one trying to keep ourselves all healthy but to realize in that we were going to have to relocate for a couple months to Colorado so that my wife could get the care that she needed and that so that would be a safe birth and a safe C section up at Colorado Children's Hospital. So Brooke was born up there in mid mid July and you know it was born a beautiful baby and just happy and smiling.

Speaker 2: 12:11

But also you know it was it was brutal. It was brutal to be the one that had in the, you know, emergency room there at the hospital, in the labor room, and she would not be able to pick up your baby because they had to make sure that she was taken care of and kind of whisked her away and so and my wife had a really, really difficult labor. She was actually allergic to the anesthetic blockers that they kind of gave and so she was super, super sick and so I ended up having to spend the you know the whole day with her. She was just nauseous and vomiting and not doing well at all, and so it was incredibly stressful time. As you know, your daughter's preparing to go through surgery the next morning, first thing, and at the same time my wife was super sick and of course this is all happening in the pandemic and there's no visitors allowed and you got to go through all these checkpoints to get into the hospital and of course you know everybody's is deeply afraid of COVID and kind of what that means, and there's no vaccines or any of that's no medicines. Know nothing at that time.

Speaker 2: 13:07

So it was a really isolating, difficult, hard experience. And the way you know I kind of, you know, came into that was, you know, it just kind of felt like, you know, you're in the middle of a hurricane, a big storm, and you know, with each band of rain or big, you know, big bands that would kind of pass through, it was just you're kind of getting, you know, hit by everything and it was hard, you know. I mean, here I am, you know, a couple hundred miles away from home, family community, really, you know, you know my sister up there, my niece and nephew and brother, and while we're all up in Colorado and so that helped a lot, my sister actually came by to see Brooke that night because I was still with Jen, because she was so sick. So it was just, you know, it was just tough. It's tough to kind of go through that and go through that alone and at the same time, you know, had to get up the next morning at 5am to be there for Brooke's surgery. So you know, kind of take care of your wife, who's really really sick and you know was having trouble recovering, and at the same time, you know, also being there for Brooke.

Speaker 2: 14:07

So Brooke had her surgery the next day. It was a couple hour procedure, you know, on a little baby who's, you know, seven pounds and obviously that's intricate and complex and scary and you know nothing. You know they always say that children are like that. You know the heart that you wear outside your body and, yeah, you know you feel that vulnerability, that deep love and connection, but also that sense of pain and empathy. You know, when your child's going through all that and just, you know, entered the world and you know, knew nothing but getting new IVs in there and just watching that process of putting an IV in a baby is brutal. Especially, you know they had some difficulty with that. So just kind of seeing all that, brooke had surgery.

Speaker 2: 14:52

The surgery was really successful, she had a great surgeon and then she was in the NICU for, you know, a little more than a week and a half or so trying to recover. So, and Jen, you know Jen was in the hospital for four days. You know that was a tough recovery there too. So you know dad was running between the two wards of the hospital, between the baby and the mama and you know, and trying to take mama over as much as she could handle to kind of be with Brooke. So, you know, really humbling time, really grateful for our healthcare workers, really grateful for the hospital chaplain who was there and praying with us and for us, you know, just folks that are on the front line, you know, doing the best to not only provide care but it's you know it's tough and scary as a parent to have your kid in a scenario like that or as a spouse, to have your spouse, you know, being in a situation where they didn't know if they were going to have to transport her to a higher level trauma hospital because she wasn't recovering. My wife, so a lot going on there and of course you're handling all that in the middle of the pandemic and kind of trying to get through it, you know, largely alone. But you know we got Brooke home after about a week and a half at the NICU and she was doing great.

Speaker 2: 16:02

And one day we went for a walk and as we were walking, and you know I was holding her in my arms, brooke stopped breathing and it was, hands down, the scariest moment of my life. All of a sudden she was just unresponsive. And you know we were a couple blocks from there. Maybe you know, not even had a couple hundred yards from the house at that point. And you know, here I'm holding this little seven, eight pound baby who's not breathing and you know I'm kind of trying to run back to the house as my wife's calling 911. And you know, preparing to do CPR on her. And so I started doing CPR on her and was able to kind of get her to come back and, you know, become responsive again as she was on the floor and she started crying, which was the, you know, made me cry and just tears were coming out of my eyes as she kind of came back to us, you know, and became more responsive.

Speaker 2: 16:55

And so the ambulance came and they took her to the hospital. And, you know, they took her back to Children's Hospital. They did a COVID test on her. They said that she was COVID positive, which was crazy because we hadn't been around anybody and had been totally in isolation, and so they put her in an isolation unit at the hospital and they wouldn't let us come see her until we tested negative and so we were kind of away from her and not able to be with our baby, who we didn't know what was going on and you know, for a couple days. And so when we finally were able to get back into the hospital and be tested, it was crazy. I mean, there's no more of an isolating place than maybe the COVID unit of a hospital.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And you know, I saw firsthand a NICU COVID unit and there was a mother I thought actually a lot about you, jorge. There was a mother next door, a young woman who was an immigrant, spoke Spanish, and she was with her daughter who was about maybe 10 months old, who had got COVID, and the mom had the choice of either leaving the hospital and leaving her daughter or staying with her, and so they isolated her in a room and that she had. She couldn't leave the room and they brought the mom the food and the mom just slept on a chair and I, you know, we were right there next door to him and I was praying for that mom and thinking about her. How tough that was. And so you know, just just seeing the love of a parent like that and ourselves, and finally coming back in there and what they ended up finding out was that, you know, they have a.

Speaker 2: 18:27

There's a certain thing with young toddlers or young infants that they can just stop breathing. It's almost like a reflux issue. It's an issue where they just suddenly stop breathing. And so that's what they diagnosed Brooke with. They said it's kind of a freak thing and that you know that is rare and it doesn't really happen and usually doesn't happen again. So of course we were traumatized from that and we've, you know, four days later we got her out of the, we found out that she was COVID negative and we were, of course, all COVID negative. So, you know, thankful for that. But you know, in the middle of that we've been through.

Speaker 2: 18:57

You know, that hurricane and that storm, you know that just ratcheted up to a category five at that point and the winds of life and the rains and the storm of life were just beaten against us at that point as new parents. And of course you're tired to. You know, if everything goes right, you're exhausted, right. This was, you know, this was. Everything was really tough and challenging, you know. And then we also had to get Brooke back to New Mexico and drive a couple hundred miles. So you know, it was talk about journeys. You want to talk about journeys, that's journeys.

Speaker 2: 19:24

And one of the things that I always talk about as a spiritual director and as a faith leader is, you know, there's those moments in life where it can feel like a hurricane and what I learned in that moment is can you be still and find the eye of the storm? And the eye of the storm is the only calm place. It's actually the place where you can see and have a little bit of clarity and vision and calmness and centering. But you know, you've got to follow the idea I doesn't stand still and you got to kind of constantly search for that stillness and that presence and that centeredness, because the storm is moving and it's vicious and violent and strong all around you, beautiful and complex too, and so that's how it felt. And so, you know, I worked really hard with a spiritual director, friend of mine, who you know Would talk about how do you try to find the eye of the storm in the middle of the storm, can you find those places of centering, can you find those places of calm, can you find those places of prayer and listening and discernment, because you have to make a lot of big decisions, right, and do that with a clear head in those times, and you're trying to make decisions for the health of your wife and the health of your daughter, and you know just everything else.

Speaker 2: 20:29

And at the same time you're feeling every emotion that you can imagine, from trauma to fear, to anxiety, to love, to gratitude, and it's just overwhelming.

Speaker 2: 20:40

And so finding those moments in the storm where you can center and slow down, and so that image of the hurricane became a very powerful image to me, because you know you can, you got to try to find that eye of the storm when it feels like everything around you is just swish, swirling and spinning so fast and exhausting right, and so that that was a, you know, very powerful image that kind of came to me through that experience of what does it mean in the midst of life storms, in the midst of life journeys, you know where you're gonna run into, those bigger disruptions and those bigger problems and those moments where everything that you were hoping would go right Just feels like it's going wrong, and you know what does that mean to kind of slow down into center and to Restabilize.

Speaker 2: 21:22

You know, and I'm kind of a firm believer that you know, before you can grow, you have to stabilize. And so how do you, how do you kind of root yourself down so that you can kind of have that Stability in order to grow? And that's what we were trying to do as a family right to grow it together as a family. But you have to stabilize first.

Speaker 1: 21:38

Andrew, thank you so much for sharing what a, what a crazy way to to enter this new territory of parenthood, right, and? And a new chapter in your lives, when, in the middle of so much uncertainty because I mean, it's 2022 now and and it's so easy for us to to remember the pandemic, even though it was just yesterday, but, but it's easy to forget how fragile we all were at that time. You know, and and and the fear that was so prevalent everywhere. I can only imagine what you guys were going through the this, this, this, perhaps this feeling of powerlessness, right, this, this idea of how am I gonna figure this out? There's no doubt that Brooke is a beautiful child. I mean, I, I, even though I'm in Miami and you're in Santa Fand in Mexico I love when we catch up to FaceTime and I get to see Brooke Crow and I love her beautiful blue eyes. I always said that she's completely a copy of you, because she really is. I mean, she looks like her mom a little bit, but she mostly looks like you, um, but there's no doubt that that you guys have gone through such a an interesting ride, and one of the things that I've always appreciated about you, andrew, and our friendship is, is your ability to bring this Awareness to, to the mystery of things and, in this, what you just said, this ability to to find the eye of the hurricane, to Find the eye of the storm where you can find the balance. I remember, andrew, when, um, it was a January, it was January of 2008 because I looked it up, okay, and you know, we're in, we're in seminary.

Speaker 1: 23:24

I was a young man Wow, I'm gonna get emotional. I was a young man trying to figure out life by myself and and pursuing this idea, the sense of calling that I, that I was a young man, that I, that I still continue to feel in my life, even though it looks different, um, but I needed to find balance, I needed to find a way to slow down and you, um, you invited me to enter a very, uh, still place and you said to me all right, why don't we just go for a day retreat to the abbey of Gethsemane? And for the listeners out there, the abbey of Gethsemane is a beautiful Monastic community, is a trappist monastic community in Kentucky, in barstown, and, um, you know a Puerto Rican dude, uh, that is used to. You know 80 degree weather and 90 degree weather, um, being in the middle of the of the cold, bitter winter, by myself. You said you need to. You need you need to be by yourself. And here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go to the abbey, I'm gonna leave you and, uh, in whatever place you want to be, this is a beautiful campus, is huge. The property of the abbey is pretty large, um, but I'm gonna give you a set of questions and you have all day to answer these questions, to write in your journal and, um, to spend some time with yourself. And the truth is, yes, you know, I am for those of you who who are listening I did grew up in in the Christian context.

Speaker 1: 24:57

I did grow up in the church, so I'm used to going to retreats and whatnot, but, you know, you go to a summer camp and it's fun, but at this point, I'm an adult. I'm 20 is 2008. I was 28 years old, so I consider myself an adult, um, but this was probably the first time that I was, that I had to deal with myself and my mind and my heart, and the ability of being in nature was was really interesting, because I had no way to run away from myself. You know, and um, I still have with me the notebook, the journal that I Took with me, and the questions are still here Question number one, question number two and so forth. Right, and I remember, you know you, it was so cold, it was probably like 13 degrees, it was. It was a very cold day, um, and I had all my gear. I was, of course, I had water and I had tea, and you said, jorge, I'm gonna go back to the abbey, you'll be here whenever you're ready and you're done, made me at the, at the cafeteria, but this day I'm going to be here.

Speaker 1: 26:15

But this day, I am so grateful for this day because you you mentioned, you tap into it just a little bit ago, which is when things are messy, when things when there's so much convolution in your heart and in your minds and in our lives, we need to find the way to find a moment of stillness.

Speaker 1: 26:36

And it's interesting, right because we hear this phrase of you know, the power of stillness is present in so many different traditions.

Speaker 1: 26:43

Right, in our Christian tradition, it we have reference to it when it talks about be still and know that I am God.

Speaker 1: 26:50

However, I never understood what that meant until I went through that experience of being by myself and finding the quietness of nature, finding the, the, the, the no escape room of Learning to listen to my heart and to my mind without any other distractions. Right, and so I'm grateful for that day. I'm grateful that I still carry this journal with me, and I'm grateful because those difficult questions were the beginning of a process that allowed me to access a deeper part of myself, and and and I'm thankful and thankful for for for that, and and, once again, the purpose of this podcast and these conversations is to Talk about gratitude. But it's not just a gratitude that it's for lack of a better word superficial or flaky. It's actually the gratitude that we can realize when we have overcome and understood Very profound aspects of who we are right, and so, from that perspective, can you think of someone or remember a situation that you went on through and now you're looking back, you realize that you know yourself better because of it?

Speaker 2: 28:04

Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you bring up the Abbey of Gethsemane, jorge, because you know I'm a firm believer that you can only lead people as far as you've gotten yourself. And so you know, when you're talking about the Abbey of Gethsemane, one of the the people that I relied on Really heavily and get to know a lot of the monks there and kind of kind of consider myself a little bit of a lay monk. And if I, you know, didn't have a wife and child and wasn't working for the National Wildlife Federation, I might be there as a monk in the Abbey of Gethsemane. You know, one of the monks that I leaned on heavily was a man named Father Seamus, and Father Seamus Was an old Irish monk. He was a Catholic priest. He had served as a priest actually down in your neck of the Woods, fort Lauderdale area for probably 50 years, was a beloved priest of this parish, you know, and in the middle of all of that decided that he wanted to seek a life of silence and solitude and prayer and be able to, and so he became to the Abbey of Gethsemane and, you know, took his vows and became a monk Father Seamus had, you know, one of the things I loved about him is that he really had that combination of life, wisdom and pastoral ministry and working with all kinds of different people and very complex and diverse communities down in the Miami, fort Lauderdale area.

Speaker 2: 29:22

And so he's seen the world, he's been around the world, he's seen life's problems and, and he knew that he was a monk. And so he's been around the world, he's seen life's problems and and he knew a lot about how to work with people. And I read, you know, and that's rare, I mean, you know, he didn't just kind of, you know, cloister himself and hide away from people. He, he took those gifts and abilities and backgrounds and experiences into the monastery with him to be a monk. And so I, you know, found that, found him incredibly wise and interesting and inspiring as a person, as I got to know him over the years of visiting the Abbey of Gethsemane and being a retreatant there and and whatnot.

Speaker 2: 29:58

And so there was one time where I asked him and I'll never forget it, I said, you know, one time I asked him I said, you know, so, father Seamus, what's this life all about? You know, I'm sitting there and you know, and it was a question that I asked him, not just in a kind of shallow or superficial way. It was a question that kind of came deeply out of the desire of my soul, wanting to know what. You know, what is this life all about? What are we doing here? You know, maybe a different way, as you could say, what's the what's the meaning of life, or, but you know, for me it was what's this life all about? What are we? What are we here for? And you know, I'll never forget his answers. He kind of looked me dead in the eye and he said Life is about priority, perspective and balance.

Speaker 2: 30:40

What are your priorities? How will you keep perspective and how will you stay balanced? And if any one of those three things are off, they'll affect the other. Right, you can have really strong priorities, but you may lose perspective. Or you may have good perspective, but your priorities are a lot of whack. Or you may have good perspective and good priorities, but you're completely out of balance and overworked and exhausted and overwhelmed, right, and so learning to kind of step back and reprioritize and keep perspective. And so, for me, I think a lot about coming back to that and, as you have lots of different listeners, I would encourage you to take that paradigm. Think about what are my priorities here, how do I keep in perspective on those priorities? What do I need to do to stay balanced in so I can keep perspective and keep my priorities right? So as I approach life, I always think about that.

Speaker 2: 31:34

Here I am a father, I'm a minister of a church. I also worked for the National Wildlife Federation running on profit called Earthkeepers 360. That works for spiritual leaders all over the country to get involved in conservation and wildlife issues, and so I've got three jobs and I'm a dad and a husband and I'm running around with whatever I can do to help the community. And for me it's always important in the midst of all of that to stand back and say what are your priorities? What is it? Profit a man to gain the whole world and lose an own soul, as Jesus would say? Am I being a good father? Am I centered as a husband? What can I do to better, to be a better steward of the earth for God? And how do I keep those priorities from center? But also, how do I stand back?

Speaker 2: 32:19

There's gonna be days as a husband or as a father or working in the environmental movement, where you're gonna feel like, no matter how hard you work, you've never done enough and you're failing. And so that's that perspective piece of how do you kind of stand back and stay centered and realize that oftentimes life's a lot like that iceberg where you have to chip away at the edges and you can't just kind of take the iceberg full on, because there's a lot above and below the surface, right, that's happening. And so you kind of just have to chip away at the edges of things and kind of realize when, the grand scheme of things, when you stand back, you'll have made a difference. And so, keeping that bigger life perspective of kind of zooming out and realizing there's a lot above and below the surface of life, there's a lot going on here Today. I may not be feeling great about where I am and what I'm doing, but kind of taking a deep breath and standing back and being like, okay, how do I have a long view of what's going on here and so, and that's that sense of staying balanced.

Speaker 2: 33:12

And how do you have fun? That's one of the things as a pastor I'm like you need to talk about having fun. Faith needs to be about having fun and think about who Jesus was. I mean, little kids were running up to this guy. People were seeking them out in the crowd and, as a Presbyterian minister, I'm always reminding people, like people, don't seek out somebody who's a total downer and not having fun and not cracking jokes and little kids are sitting on his lap, and you got to have that sense of laughter and fun and compassion and that helps you stay balanced. And so what is it that you need to do to keep that right? Cause you can have good priorities and you can stand back and have some perspective, but you may be totally burned out and you may be bringing a spirit that's just heavy and down and yeah, you're doing good things but you're not bringing a good spirit to it. So for me, that sense of staying balanced.

Speaker 2: 34:03

So for me, I love to fly fish and standing in the river. I was just out yesterday standing in the river, looking up through the trees and as much as it is about fishing and casting and catching fish, I love to just stand in the river and feel the water going by my legs and being connected with the earth underneath and thinking, when I cast this fly, I'm gonna be so in tune with this river and with the fish that are in it that it's gonna think that this little artificial thing that I cast is actually food, and I'm gonna be in so much rhythm with the way the river's moving and flowing that I'm one with nature and to be centered like that, right that everything, in order for me to make that cast and to put that fly going the same speed and for that fish to think it's the food, I have to be in tune with all of it, right, and where the shadows are, and where the sun is, and where my feet are, and all of that. And so for me, those are those really centering points that helped me find balance. I love to run and to work out, I like to hike, I love to be outdoors, but I also just like to go grab a beer with friends, and so finding those things, what is it that's gonna help you maintain a sense of balance? But it was really funny, jorge, and you probably don't know this part of the story.

Speaker 2: 35:16

A couple of years later, I went back to the Abbey of Gethsemane and I saw Father Seamus and I said to him I said, father Seamus, I don't know if you remember this, but I remember asking you this question about what is life all about? And you told me life is about priorities, perspective and balance. I said do you remember telling me that? And here he is in his 90 years old right, and he goes oh, I've learned something in the last couple of years too. And he said I want you to remember this part and add this as your fourth piece. And he said the last couple of years have taught me this.

Speaker 2: 35:46

It's not just about balance, because you never stay balanced, it's also about constant readjustment. So life's about priorities, perspective, balance, but also constant readjustment, because we never stay balanced. And I think that's one of the fictitious things of the spiritual life. Right, like people in this world want a quick spirituality, they want a spirituality where I'm gonna stay balanced and if I get imbalanced then it's not the right spirituality and I gotta move on to something else. But I always remind people no, your spirituality is to help you also constantly readjust to regain balance. Right, life is gonna throw curveballs and come at you quick and have those hurricane force winds that are gonna throw you off of your balance and knock you down. But can you constantly readjust? Can you find that recentering? And that's the key right that it's also about that constant readjustment. So it's funny you talk to Father Seamus and in the years from living from 80 to 90 years old. He adds in that piece of it's about also constant readjustment. It's not just about balance.

Speaker 1: 36:49

We get so hung up when we are quote unquote in this journey of discovering who we are and our spirituality that we have to be perfect when, in reality, the whole thing is about discovering who you are, accepting what it's there and learning to how to deal with it.

Speaker 1: 37:09

That is such to me. That was one of the most liberating things that I'd learned over the years Because, like many, you go into this pursuit of oh my goodness, you follow a specific tradition or whatever, and all of a sudden, you feel like you are denying a lot of many aspects of who you are, and life will make sure to teach you that that doesn't work. Life will make sure to teach you that that's not the right approach, but we can continue to hit the same wall unless we realize that we do have to learn how to readjust and how to have fun and how to just go with the flow. At the same time, let me ask you something, andrew. What do you feel were you able to overcome and understand better about yourself and your character throughout these challenges and situations that you have gone through your life? Maybe the most recent thing has been the birth of Brooke and your journey as a parent. What do you feel that you have discovered about your character and what are the areas in which you feel like you have grown?

Speaker 2: 38:16

Yeah, I mean, I think in a lot of ways, jorge, that question speaks a little bit to what we were just talking about In Celtic Christianity and kind of what I mean by that is the Christianity that was coming out of Scotland and Ireland, and there's especially an old form of Christianity, right. I'm talking about the monks of Iona and kind of the book of Kells and some of that more nature-based early Christianity, that kind of formed, independent of the bigger Roman church, so to speak. Right, and one of the things that I always loved about Celtic Christianity is they have a definition of spirituality, that spirituality is about becoming human. It's not that we need to become a spiritual, spiritual, ethereal beings we already are, that God gives us our spirit. It's that we need to learn to become human and learn to love one another and to love ourselves and then love God and, of course, love this sense of creation around us. And so I think a lot of your question gets at what have I learned in becoming human? We're already spiritual beings. We need to learn to become human beings. And what does that mean? That sense of interconnectedness with one another, with something greater than ourselves and, of course, with all of creation around us.

Speaker 2: 39:30

And so in this 42 years that I've been on this planet, one of the things that I've learned about becoming human is it's about vulnerability, and our culture and our society not only doesn't teach us that matter of fact, it probably teaches things that are counter to that. You need to put on that hard shell, you need to put on that sense of strength and courage and might and all that stuff, but how do you learn to be vulnerable? I mean, let me tell you a story where so when we brought Brooke home from the hospital, I already talked about how she stopped breathing in my arms, and that's the scariest moment you can imagine as a parent. And here I am giving her CPR and the ambulance comes to take her, and of course, there's this whole spectacle in the neighborhood in Denver that we're at that sees all this right and no one knows what's going on. And I'm just down on the grass crying in the front yard because I don't know what's going on, and all I know is my daughter has been now whisked away in an ambulance with my wife and I've got to go now back to the hospital, and so there's this just moment of utter vulnerability where you're out of everything feels out of control. It's. There's nothing you can do to change that moment. It's just you're in it.

Speaker 2: 40:51

And the next day, while Brooke is still in the hospital and Jen and I are at home still awaiting our COVID test because we can't go in until we test negative, a young girl, probably about four or five, and her mom ring the doorbell and they said I go and answer the door and I didn't want to see anybody. I didn't feel like seeing anybody. I was just broken and hurting and vulnerable and scared and just didn't want to deal with the world. But I go and I answer the door and this mom and her daughter there with their mask on and they've got a little grocery bag and they say we don't know what happened yesterday and we don't know. We know you have a new daughter and we're worried about her and we think that there's something going on with her, but we don't know what happened. But we just want to let you know that we're praying for all you and we're praying for her and we want to bring you all dinner and some flowers because we know you're going through a really hard time. And we didn't know these people. We had just been renting this place in the neighborhood, from New Mexico, rented this place in Denver to be up there for the birth. And this young mom and daughter were centered and had enough perspective to know not only are those people hurting and scared over there, but there's something that we can do to try to make sure that they remember what it's like to be human and that there's a drag for them. And so this young and mom and daughter just walked up the street and brought us dinner and said, hey, we're here to care for you and if you need anything for you or your wife or your daughter, we're here for you.

Speaker 2: 42:21

And to me, like that sense of that really is that good Samaritan right, like that sense of somebody taking time out of their life and the busyness of their own life and with their child and saying, hey, what's going on in these other people's life? They're hurting, they're laying there on the side of the road wounded and hurt, just like in the good Samaritan story, how can we help them? And so that sense of as a minister, as a spiritual director, having a law degree, working in public policy I mean so much of my life has been working to help people. I've done HIV, aids law, I've done domestic violence law, I've worked with poverty and immigration issues, so much of my life has always been the helper.

Speaker 2: 43:06

But you ask about what I've learned and it's that sense of vulnerability to be helped and really helped and to feel that sense of real humanity and compassion when this family comes over and sees you and you're not invisible in your pain. And so you have a lot of different listeners who are hey, and that's one of the things I would encourage to them is see people that are hurting around you. Make sure they're not invisible. Make sure that those people at the street who you haven't heard from in a while, maybe you go knock on their door and just say, hey, I wanted to check on you and I always see you walking and I haven't seen you in a while. I just want to let you know that I see you and I care about you. Those little things in life are part of what makes us human. That's part of that experiment in becoming a human being. Right, we're already spiritual beings. It's learning to become truly human beings.

Speaker 2: 43:56

And those vulnerabilities are so hard and they're so critical and they're so raw, right that day, that I did not feel like answering the door. But I'm glad I did because I learned a lot about the compassion and love and kindness of other people and in that moment that brought me to tears. It still brings me to tears Just to think that somebody saw an ambulance come, saw hell breaking loose in our lives, didn't know what any of it was about, but knew that somebody was hurting and wounded on the other side and that was awesome. And that's one of the things that I've learned is how do you let yourself be helped? I mean I had surgery a month ago to have my parathyroid removed. It was kind of a crazy surgery, not expected.

Speaker 2: 44:42

I was really hurting because of that and in the middle of that, I mean I was laid out for two weeks and couldn't do much for myself and had to rely on the care and love of others and compassion of others. And members of my church brought food and said prayers and brought a beautiful Irish blessing that hangs up in our house. You're learning to find that that it you know, as so many of us pride ourselves as being the helper, but it's also learning to have the vulnerability to be helped and to remember that we're human. And you know that for me is such a critical life lesson. And and and I it's. It's vulnerable, it's hard. Easier to be the helper honestly.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Absolutely. You know, if you allow me to follow up and piggyback with you, man, we do such a great job at hiding our vulnerability and we take pride on those things. Our society has taught us that when you are an expert at hiding what's going on with you, you continue in the road of success, and that's not we have. Thank God that we're learning good. That's not the case. Um you to talk about vulnerability, you talked about being human.

Speaker 1: 46:01

One of the one of the phrases that I have Learn or that I have use over the years and I use with my students, is to remember that we, that we share something very special and it's our humanity. We have our shared humanity and in that space, everything is level. You know, in that space of our shared humanity, we recognize that we all have the same longings. We know what fears looks like, we know how comfortable it is, we know the beauty of joy, we know how powerful it is to to to be heard and to be listened to. But we need to Give ourselves permission to celebrate that shared humanity. That is the beautiful gift and I'm so grateful that you brought that up, because maybe that's one of the great, the great take away from from our conversation today, right, the fact that that when we show compassion, when we recognize we're all in this journey together and that those are the moments that we show compassion, empathy, and those are the moments I'm convinced that the beauty of our humanity shines.

Speaker 1: 47:10

And if we want to use Spiritual language or religious language, that's when the idea of the energy of God's just shines through each and one of us. Right, because we're recognizing the gift of the spirit, the gift of life that all sentient beings have. And when we recognize those wounds and those moments of pain and all of a sudden we become each other's Angels and brothers and sisters, there's something so powerful and so loving and so transformative that happens at those moments. It's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, andrew. I appreciate and I hope that those good Samaritans that were a part of your life, that no longer are with you because they live in Colorado and now you're back in Santa Fe, will continue to receive a hundred times full-fall the kindness that they share with you. Thank you so much for sharing, andrew.

Speaker 2: 47:58

Yeah, I know it's, it's, um, you know, and I think it's really, really important to have that balance of being the help and the helper because, you know, for me it's also helped me be better helper. So I work with a lot of veterans and combat veterans. I'm a fly, I'm a fly fishing guide and so I'll lead camp camping and fly fishing trips with combat veterans. We've been through a lot of trauma, you know, and so in doing my own trauma work and working through all the stuff that Went on with the birth of my daughter and all of that stuff, I've learned a lot about how I can help better people, you know. Help other people be, you know, be better and have that sense of healing and wholeness.

Speaker 2: 48:36

You know, in working with veterans, one of the things you know I've learned a lot about is obviously in trauma.

Speaker 2: 48:41

You know, kind of your frontal cortex goes offline, right, you know you kind of rely on that reptilian part of your brain when you're just in a fight or flight mode, right, and and and there's all those triggers that can kind of make you not present, right, you're always thinking about the past and caught in those traumas of the past or thinking about the future and the anxieties of what's to come. And so finding ways to kind of help people be centered and, you know, using some of those trauma techniques to, to, you know, be present, right, that's kind of one of the really really important things, because your brain guy, you know, kind of goes offline when you're in those moments of trauma and stress. And so finding a way to help people center and be present and kind of be with you in that moment and so I do a lot of that on the river, right, I mean when you're fly fishing with somebody and you're trying to teach them about those rhythms and pay attention to, you know, being in tune with those river and finding themselves kind of just lost in that river, has been a really powerful thing. And, of course, that that sense of water can also be really a Moving water, a sense of healing for the mind too. But in working with a lot of these veterans, you know, I've what I found is in creating that space for people to be centered, to be grounded, to kind of really become present and not just, you know, getting caught in the past or scared of what's happening in the future, of what's gonna happen, right, but being present there on the river. It's really interesting because, you know, in my experience of doing this work now for over a decade, with lots of different veterans Who've experienced lots of different things, one of the things I found is that it's that moment of healing and wholeness and being present starts to occur, and then they start to open up and open up about what's happened, what they've seen, what's gone on, what they're scared of, what they, you know, what they do at night and you know, and some really some really intense stuff.

Speaker 2: 50:26

You know, I, you know I had a we're through the veteran who, you know, every morning he would search underneath his car with a mirror, thinking that somebody had placed a bomb there. No, he jacked, jack, you know, he jacked on his driveway to get rid of all the concrete so you could see if there were any tire tracks in it. You know. So, folks who have been through a lot of heavy trauma, you know, and and now that's one of the things we forget to in these more urban settings where you know folks are now in Afghanistan and Iraq there's a lot of different triggers. I mean, you know, when a veteran hits a speed bump, that could be like an IED, right. There's lots of different triggers and maybe even you know very different work experiences. Say, then you know Vietnam veterans in these kind of more urban settings and so really finding ways to kind of help Get veterans out to nature, work with them out on the river, and then finding ways to you know If they're, if they're interested in opening up about how do they kind of get the counseling and the services and and and and kind of the service connections that they need to to be able to be the person that they want to be and kind of find that sense of of healing and balance. And so that's a lot of the work I do.

Speaker 2: 51:29

But in, you know, going through all I did with Brooke and kind of seeing firsthand you know Different levels of trauma and what it does to the brain and how you feel in it, I feel like it's made me a lot more in tune with you know Different experiences of trauma too and what happens with people and why they're acting the way they are, and and I'm much more gracious in that way right, it gives you a little bit more understanding of what people are going through, why they're doing what they're doing and stuff that maybe seems a little While they're crazy to the outside eye.

Speaker 2: 51:56

You know, when you've gone through some of that stuff first time yourself, you're like, oh yeah, I see what's going on there. I understand where that person is in that moment and you know. That's not to say that every person doesn't have their own unique and distinct experiences that you'll never understand right. That's definitely true. But there are some points of resonance that you can help translate to to be a little bit more In tune with where they're at and maybe some of the help that they might need.

Speaker 1: 52:19

So you're talking about fears, you're talking about trauma, you're talking about the work with veterans, and I think this is a great opportunity to perhaps spend some more time here. I'm packing a little bit more. I think it's helpful for us to remember and to understand and to learn what fears does to us individually, to recognize, like you say, those trigger points and Learn how is it that we respond in order that, when things show up again, hopefully we find new ways to respond and to relate to those aspects of ourselves, because they're never gonna go away. They're actually part of us there. They are teachers, you know, and so how do you access self-love?

Speaker 1: 53:01

Maybe you have a different language to to respond to this, but I Think you touch on it when you were talking about being with the veterans in the river and allowing them to just be in Nature and, all of a sudden, all these different things that we, all these walls that we have start to fall down and we access a very still part within ourselves that we can access that, those stories of vulnerability and pain in your experience. What are some of the moments in which you have seen the breakthrough of? Yes, here's a triggering point, here's my fear, but I now Know these things about myself and I can access a deeper part of me. I call it self-love. And and what happens after that? How would you answer that question? Perhaps? Maybe another way of asking this on a personal level is what are the practices that you do and you use in order to access self-love, and how do you share these tools with the people that you work with?

Speaker 2: 54:05

Yeah, I Mean, I think, a couple different things. You know, one of the One of my favorite quotes actually comes from Thomas Merton and he says for me to be a saint means to be myself, you know. And so the whole process of life is then to figure out what that really means and who. That is Right. You know that I don't need to be something other than myself. God created me who I need to be, and so now I need to figure out who that it really is, and I don't need to wear all these masks and identities and ego Perspectives of what others think I should be. I just need to be me and I gotta figure out what that really means and kind of, you know, peel down those layers of the onion to kind of get at what is the core of who I am and my identity. And so for me you know, that's what those spiritual practices are all about is how do I get in tune with myself, who I am? You know where that ego is getting a little out of control or where those fears and anxieties are starting to guide me To places where I, you know it's making me somebody I don't want to be. You know, kind of constantly coming back to that.

Speaker 2: 55:07

But you know, I think, jorge, for a couple things that I found, um, nature is really important. Nature is really important for healing. It's really important for that sense of connecting to oneself, and if you just kind of slow it down in nature and just be with it, you know what. What does a plant need to be, but a plant? What is a bear need to be, but a bear? Right, the bear doesn't need to try to be anything other than what it's being, which is a bear. And that bear this morning that was up in the tree was just being a bear, right, and we were being humans in the sense of, okay, how do we help this bear just be a bear and come down safely and go live where it needs to live, and so that kind of idea of just, you know, nature being a really healing place, it's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 55:47

Or a one of the things that we found at the National Wildlife Federation, where I work as the public landsfield director across the country, is that you know, when you get kids out into nature, it's been proven to make them smarter, happier and healthier. So the more you get kids out it outdoors, you know, it shapes their brain that shapes their understanding of the world, that shapes their cognitive approaches, and so, yeah, when you get kids outdoors, you know, especially young kids, it makes them smarter, happier and healthier, and there's a lot of research around all that right. But the same is true with adults, you know right, there's, there's doctors now that are prescribing quote-unquote nature therapy, right to get out there to help with blood pressure and depression and anxiety, of just getting outdoors and finding, you know, those times to walk and to be centered and to find those spaces a. One of the things that I've really found is that, with people who are experiencing grief or trauma, those are big feelings right there, feelings that are, almost, feel like they're so big inside you it's hard to even get them out of you. And so, you know, nature can be a really big space. You know, I take you know, and wherever you live, whether you live in the plains of Iowa and you're looking across a cornfield, or you're in Miami, florida, and you're looking out on the ocean in Biscayne Bay, or you're in Santa Fe, new Mexico, and looking across a mountainous plateau, nature can often be those really big spaces right that are big enough to hold those emotions, whether it's the trauma and the grief. And so I find that, you know, it's hard to get those big emotions out. You know all those feelings that come with grief, whether it's the anger or all those other issues that are so big and so kept inside, that I find that getting out to nature and just looking at one of those bigger Horizontal areas, it can be so important for healing because it's a space big enough to hold all of that. And that's some of the things that I talked to the veterans about. Right, but there's being on the river or in a big, you know, caldera volcanic area where they can see from miles Across, you know, this giant meadow that those spaces are big enough to hold those emotions that oftentimes feel like there's nothing, big enough to hold those things. And so, you know, I think that that getting out to nature is a really, really important part of healing and wholeness and really a part of, you know, important part of maintaining our health, and that's part of the reason I work so much in conservation People.

Speaker 2: 57:55

You know, one of the things that people don't understand about why I'm a conservationist is that I've seen how, you know, getting kids outdoors can transform their lives. I worked with kids who had been, you know, emotionally, physically and sexually abused, and took them out on a hike. And you know, after an hour and a half hiking out into the mountains, I'm seeing these cool petroglypharias. These kids went from having the weight of the world on their shoulders to opening up and being kids and Smiling and laughing. And then one of their counselors that does trauma counseling with these kids was like look, we, you know, we haven't had breakthroughs like that in months. We could sit down with counseling sessions with them and we've never seen these kids Having fun and smile and acting like this. And so now we have a ground and a basis that can help us. You know, know where we can get these kids and where you know what's even possible, right, because we haven't seen them like this. And that all happened, you know, by getting them outdoors and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: 58:46

And I'm not saying that outdoors is gonna be a solitary, singular fix of some of these issues, but it creates an opening and a space right for those first steps to be taken. And I've seen that with kids that have gone through trauma, and I've seen that with veterans who've gone through a lot of trauma too, and so Fighting those safe spaces outdoors too. That's really, really important, right, that it's not just, but it's a safe space there, it's a space where they can, you know, people can let down their garden, just be who they are. But with that, you know, we're a your question. You know, what do you do with those spaces, right? You, you talked about those questions that I gave you, those prompts that I gave you at the Abbey of Gisemini. Yeah, there's an importance for intentionality and reflection too in those spaces, right, you know.

Speaker 2: 59:30

And so one of the things I work with people is to do different spiritual exercises when they do get outdoors. You know, one of them is focused on your five senses. You know, what are five things that you see? What are four things that you hear, what are three things that you smell, what are two things that you feel? What is one thing that you taste right now? You know, and if you that talk about presence, right, you have to be present. What are you looking at, what are you seeing, what are you hearing, what are you feeling, what are you smelling? Right, like, your mind is not going to be all out into the whatever's going on when you have to think about that five senses exercise, right? Or, you know, I want you to look at this pine tree and I want you to tell me all about it, and I don't want you just to know there's a tree with branches. No, I want to know. You know, why is this branch looking this way and these needles looking this way, and this tree has 15 different branches? And I want you to tell me about the color of the bark.

Speaker 2: 1:00:22

Because when you're in that moment, you're present, right. You're not thinking about what just happened in Afghanistan or you're not thinking about what's happening at your home life, right, if you're coming from somewhere that these kids I've worked with come from, you're thinking about that tree and you're being present to it and you're paying attention to it and you're one with it, and so the more of that presence and the more you can start to shape your brain and kind of get back to those moments is really, really important. So, yeah, when you're in that trauma moment, come back to that. What do I see in front of me? Oh, it's a painting, okay, well, what's in that painting? What's the frame look like? What's the wall behind it? Look like? Right, come back to that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:59

And that's some of the exercises that you know we do, and of course that is you know some that you know that's far superseded than you know by some of the you know treatments and stuff. Like the veteran, you know VA gives right, but that's some of the core basis for that kind of being present. Coming back to reality, being present to the people you're with, and how do you do that when one of those triggers or one of those five you know kind of things starts to fire back and you know so that's. You know oftentimes how to. You know how you can use nature is not just that you're in nature and then these bigger spaces where those bigger, heavier emotions can come out. But can there also be some intentionality and some reflection and opportunity around that to kind of stay centered, right and finding healthy ways to deal with that right? I mean, we all know ways that you can numb out emotions and, and you know, find problematic ways to deal with some of that stuff. But there's healthier ways to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

And the last one I would say, jorge and I love the fact that you're doing this podcast is gratitude. You know, one of the things I always remind people of is, you know, can you make gratitude a little bit of a spiritual discipline in the sense of you know, jorge, when you sit down with your wife, jeanine, at dinner, you guys ever sit down and say what are four or five things you're grateful for today and make that a practice right. You know your kids get home from school what are three or four things that are that you're grateful for today, and so, finding those blessings right, you can call them blessings. What are the five blessings you've got today? And it could be as simple. As you know, I've got a warm cup of coffee and a roof over my head in a soft bed, and you know that maybe isn't what everybody has right, or it could simply be. You know, I saw a bear in a tree today. I'm going to walk outside of my house. That's already a huge blessing. That was crazy, right. But most importantly, that bear got down safely.

Speaker 2: 1:02:43

So you know those blessings every day, if you start to work on it, are so important because our society conditions our brain, conditions our spirit to thinking about all the things that are wrong and need to be improved. And I'm not this and I'm not that, and I don't have this and I don't have that, and yours is always something to strive for, you're always in a deficit mentality, but if you think about the opportunity to get into more of an abundance mentality and a gratitude mentality, but you've got to condition your soul in your mind for that, because society is already conditioning your soul in your mind against that. How do you make that more of a spiritual practice? And you know, I'm trying to, you know, teach my daughter at two years old to say, you know, thank you and please, and things that you should be grateful for, right, and you're starting that early on, you know, but starting that with our own adult minds. And so, you know, I really encourage people at the end of the day to kind of do that sense of examination, to reflect back. And it's great if you've got somebody you can do that with to, you know, just have that conversation, kickoff dinner that night with that, you know, or before you go to bed, and, hey, what are three things or five things that you're grateful for or you feel blessings, because that is so important to also look at those things.

Speaker 2: 1:03:59

And we tend to focus on the traumas and what's wrong and the stuff that went sideways in a given day or in a given week or in a given life, but we also have to condition our mind to think about what do we want, well, well, well, what's great, what are we grateful for? And that's that really does shift, that really will shift your mindset, and I think that's so important to do that, and it's. It's simple, but the simplest things are always the hardest, which is practicing that with consistency. Right, I can talk about this right now, but it's up to you all, as the listeners, to go home and put that into action, not just for today, but try to work on that for a week, a month. Well, just forget about it, because I think and then notice what is it doing to you, to your relationship, to your perspective over time? That's the hard work, right.

Speaker 1: 1:04:51

Andrew, thank you so much. I mean we can. We can talk for hours, and I always enjoyed our conversations from day one. This is such a gift. It's a gift to listen to you. It's a gift to hear once again the way in which you continue to apply your life and the tools that you've learned along the way, and I so appreciate that you're sharing this, these tools, with our listeners today. We're going to continue to have conversations. This is not going to be the first time that I will have you here, but as we bring this conversation to perhaps a closer you, can you tell us briefly about Earthkeepers, what you're doing? You just released a book and then I have. I would love to hear about what is perhaps a special quote or someone that is inspiring you lately. So tell us briefly about Earthkeepers, the release of your book and, in a quote that has been guiding you lately.

Speaker 2: 1:05:45

Yeah, so a few years back I formed an organization called Earthkeepers 360. And what Earthkeepers 360 is is a really a movement more than an organization, focused on how to help spiritual leaders and spiritual communities have the resources and tools to make a difference with regard to the environment and conservation and wildlife. And so we work on a wide variety of issues all over the country. I mean I work with spiritual leaders in Tampa, Florida, on protecting a wetland area, and work on spiritual leaders and tribal leaders here in New Mexico on protecting the Caja del Rio, which is one of the most amazing historical and cultural landscapes that has Native American petroglyphs from the 13th to the 17th century and wildlife, and also the home of the El Camino Real de Tierra de Dentro, where the Spanish came up, kind of threw this area into the Southwest, Also home to Route 66 and kind of westward expansion, right. So this area has all of that and also incredible wildlife and nature values as well. So I work with spiritual leaders and spiritual communities and really anybody, and you know we don't narrowly define that. You know it's not one faith, it's multi faith, it's interfaith, multi denominational, but the whole hope is to give practical resources and tools to people to help their faith communities really make a difference and spiritual leaders to make a difference in the world, and recognizing that climate change, loss of habitat, that these are moral issues, that these are spiritual issues, this is showing that we are not being good stewards of the creation and the gift of creation that's been given to us. And so we work on a wide variety of issues, from public lands to wildlife, you know, connectivity and habitat loss and wildlife movement to also, you know how do we work on climate change in places like Miami, Florida, and so the whole hope of Earthkeepers is to be a resource, be a network, be a hub to different spiritual leaders to kind of set forward a new environmental ethic for this country and for the world and to live that ethic out in their congregations and in their communities and to, you know, kind of really start to make a difference on these issues.

Speaker 2: 1:07:52

And my hope is, by getting these different spiritual communities and leaders involved, that we'll really start to make a difference on some of those bigger issues that are facing us that are really, you know, an existential human issue. You know climate change is going to be impacting future generations, it's going to be impacting wildlife, it impacts us all already now it's going to. It's a social justice issue, and that's one of the things that I also talk about, too, is that if you care about the environment, you need to care about social justice, and if you care about social justice, you need to care about the environment, because, you know, take climate change is going to displace millions and millions of people, or devastating wildfires that are happening in California or across the Southwest, you know, are going to impact the lowest resource communities that don't have anywhere else to go, or you're going to have food shortages, right, global food shortages, local food shortages, some of these challenges that are as a result of climate shifts. And so my point is that, you know, oftentimes in our world, we, you know, kind of bifurcate and falsely bifurcate ourselves into these are social justice people and these are environmental and conservation people. No, you need to be both, because they're they're interrelated, they're interconnected, and the reality is our spiritual communities also need to be helping people understand that it's both, and we also need to be relying on science.

Speaker 2: 1:09:02

You know, that's one of the things that I, you know, always think, also as a false dichotomy, is that you know between science and religion. Know that, you know science needs to be telling us, you know, part of the reason of what's happening and what matters and what's the data behind it, and and and you know spirituality and religion can talk a little bit about why and the meaning behind it. Right, and these things are not false, right? You know, Dr Martin Luther King really very much saw science and religion as being complimentary and helpful for one another. And so, for myself, as a faith leader, I firmly believe that, that I want to use science and facts and knowledge to help me be a better conservationist and a better steward of God's creation. And and you know, I don't buy into those false dichotomies and think that God gave us a brain for a reason to use it.

Speaker 2: 1:09:47

So, point being, you know, Earthkeepers is really all about equipping and engaging spiritual leaders and communities in some of these conversations on some of these issues, providing resources, providing presentations and really trying to help make a difference on the ground and reconnect people with land and water and wildlife. And so, yeah, you can go check out our website at wwwearth-keepersorg and sign up for our weekly reflections and in that you'll have you know what's going on around the country and different events. You're going to have reflections from key, you know, quotes from key leaders, spiritual and world leaders, and and you know all kinds of different people that will give you opportunities to reflect on some different conservation issues. And then there's always a take action focused on public policy or making a difference that you can make just in your own life on, say, climate change. So, you know, we work on all of that stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:10:38

It's a passion of mine and part of the reason I, you know, like I said, care about all this stuff is I've seen how I, you know firsthand how nature can heal and how it's really helpful to people who have undergone trauma and really is a critical kind of pastoral tool, so to speak. But if you don't protect it, you'll lose it, you know, and you know and we're not just losing nature in the abstract sense of this is what's happening with regard to wildlife, habitat or nature we're also losing that sense of ourselves and perhaps the ability to help heal some of ourselves too. And we have to see it more like that, you know, and and these spaces are necessary for veterans to come back to, for, you know, kids who have gone through trauma, for all of us who just need to take a deep breath because we're looking at our phones and our emails.

Speaker 1: 1:11:24

Well, I am grateful that you are engaged and committed with this initiative and this movement. I hope that those listeners who are perhaps interested in learning more about it don't don't forget to do your homework and go to earth-keeperscom. Did I said that right? Earthkeeperscomorgorg. Okay, okay, to finalize, can you share with me and with our listeners one quote that continues to guide you?

Speaker 2: 1:11:53

Yeah, so we talked a lot about the Abbey of Gethsemane. Obviously one of the most well-known monks that came from the Abbey of Gethsemane was Thomas Merton. You know, wrote well over 60 books at least and translated into various languages, and you know, everything from New Seeds of Conimplation to Seven Story Mountain are some of the books that Thomas Merton was, you know, contemporary with folks like Dorothy Day and Martin Luther King and Tick-Nah-Hon and these bigger spiritual leaders that have guided kind of the modern era. But you know, merton, one of the things I loved about him was his ability to kind of parse down and get to those priorities, perspectives, right, and so one of the quotes that Merton says is the things in life that I thought mattered the most in the end tend to matter the least. And the things in life that I thought mattered the least in the end tend to matter the most. And I've thought a lot about that quote. You know, because you know, in a society where it's focused on outcomes, what's your GPA, you know where'd you graduate in your class, you know what's your ranking for this or that, how much does this cost? We tend to focus so much on all of that, but those little experiences of going to your first baseball game, or, you know, catching a foul ball, or sitting down and eating an ice cream with your friend and, you know, catching having a beer. Those moments that, in the grand scheme of things, you don't think really are any big, significant moments, those are the ones you remember and I had this moment. You know. That quote became a very powerful quote to me when I was in law school.

Speaker 2: 1:13:27

One of my best friends was a young, 23 year old African American male. He was a really strong guy, had been, you know, through hammer and track and field for Wake Forest, was a credible athlete and died of a rare heart condition at 23 years old, was working out and just passed away and it was, you know, crazy. You know you're in this law school environment where everyone's focused on their GPA and who's going to go to what firm and how much money you're going to make next year and all these things. And yet when I thought about Cliff Cliff's life and my life, I remember him going to his first spring training game and the smile he had. I remember him coming off of a roller coaster at Bush Gardens in Tampa Bay and just acting like a little kid, just filled with fear and wonder and joy and happiness, and the laughter he had.

Speaker 2: 1:14:14

And you know, I remember, you know his face at a restaurant when he would try some spicy food, right, and those things that I thought, in the grand scheme of things, I didn't, you know, remember at all until when he passed away. Those are all the things I remember. I couldn't tell you his grade point average. I couldn't tell you how much he was going to make at the firm that wanted to hire him. I couldn't tell you any of those things that at the time we all thought were the most important things. But I can definitively tell you what it looked like when he caught a foul ball at that spring training game that he went to. I mean, it was crazy.

Speaker 2: 1:14:43

And so you know, those things that you know, in the grand scheme of things are always the things that I think are important and matter the most. And so just having that perspective right, that's kind of that perspective piece of standing back and thinking, you know I remember what Jorge looked like when we went running over there in the park in Louisville after the seminary, right, I think I remember. You know what your wedding was like and I, you know I may not remember anything about your vows, but I remember, you know, seeing how happy your family was and watching you do that, those kind of things you know that we tend to remember. And so I think it's knowing that and kind of really staying present in those super small moments because in the end, actually, they end up being some of the most important moments. And it's just that ice cream cone shared on a park bench, right, it's the walk that you had, that you were trying to get to some other bigger meeting that day, but the walk was the most important thing that happened to you that day.

Speaker 2: 1:15:35

So I think that's one of the things I would share with your listeners is, you know, it's all about staying in that present moment. It's about keeping some of that perspective that you know you may be thinking. You know I've got to deal with my daughter and potty training a toddler, right, and that's the end goal. But don't forget to just think about those little moments that happened throughout that day and those are going to be the ones you're going to. You know, remember, certainly you're going to remember the potty training and ultimately they'll get to where they need to be, but you're going to remember all those other tiny moments where, you know, I caught my daughter counting to five by herself yesterday and I was amazed by it, right, because she just was sitting there doing it and I wasn't around and I wasn't telling her to do it. So it's those little moments like that that I think, in the end, really do matter the most, and that's what Merton was getting at.

Speaker 1: 1:16:23

Andrew, thank you so much. This is. You have proven why Journey Talks podcast is Journey Talks podcast, because it's all about sharing these stories. It's all about creating space to remember the simplicity of life and the gift of life, and I said at the beginning you came at the right time in my life. You continue to show up and I'm thankful for you.

Speaker 1: 1:16:47

I wish you nothing but the best and all the initiative that you're working on For all those who are listening right now. Let's give ourselves the opportunity to be vulnerable, to be human, to discover who we are and to not be afraid to share the beauty of the discovery and the learning that comes out of it. Hopefully, we can help each other out when we create spaces to listen to each other and we can continue to show the beauty of the gift of life to one another and through one another. This has been another episode of Journey Talks podcast and we look forward to having you with us the next time. Thank you and have a great day. Thank you for listening. Make sure you like, follow and subscribe to our podcast, share your feedback, hit that notification bell and let's keep the conversation going.