Speaker 1: 0:01

The Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration, hosted by Jorge Gonzales. Hello and welcome to Journey Talks podcast, your favorite podcast to reconnect with gratitude and inspiration. My name is Jorge Sallago Gonzales and I am your host. I am convinced that behind every gratitude, there's a powerful story waiting to be told, and through this podcast, I want to create a space where we can share these stories and inspire one another. As humans, we share one thing in common, and it's this experience of being alive, and we're all together on this journey we call life, and there are some people or situations that live a footprint in us. Some people stay for a short period of time and others linger for a little bit longer. Who are the people or the situations that have opened doors of transformation in your mind and our hearts and have helped us to become and be the person we are today? Through this podcast, I will be interviewing people with stories of gratitude, and my hope is that our willingness to reconnect with these stories will help us celebrate our shared humanity and give us an opportunity to reconnect with the unconditional love we all have access to from within Our guests today. Two of them are two of my favorite people in the world. They both and I have to read this because I have to read it so they both have a zest for life that is contagious, beautiful and life-giving. Their sense of humor is out of control. They both are artistic in their own right. One of them is an amazing musician, singer-songwriter, with a tremendous heart and a unique way to bring satire, humor, irony, reflection, contemplation into music, and the other one, although training as a social counselor. In my opinion, I feel she should be considered the queen of positivity and motivation. She has a profound ability to connect with people, make them feel seen and at home, but also get you going when you find yourself lacking courage and motivation. We met about 12 years ago or so and it has been fascinating to see their growth over the years and where they are today.

Speaker 1: 2:35

Many hente allow me to introduce you to Ben Thornwell and Kelly Pocket. Welcome to Journey Talks Pocket.

Speaker 2: 2:44

Well, applause that was an introduction. What an intro too much. I'm not lying. Everything that I'm saying is absolutely true, ben and Kelly.

Speaker 1: 2:56

welcome to Journey Talks Pocket guys. I'm so thrilled that you guys are with us.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 3:02

What's happening. You know, random fact people, if you're listening, kelly and I worked together a long, long time ago and the truth is I still consider that we were the best thing ever. We were team A Amen. It was incredible. I then met Ben one day at the office when this you know Friends of Kelly stopped by the office and all of a sudden there's this you know young guy, super cool, great personality, and the truth is that the chemistry was palpable. It was, and you know, the years went by and eventually they decided to get married and what's interesting about them is that their wedding was one of those many weddings that got affected by the pandemic. You guys remember that.

Speaker 2: 3:47

Oh yeah, I think it was date number three that we actually did.

Speaker 3: 3:52

It Was that right, yeah, yeah, our third wedding date was ending up being our actual wedding day.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Yeah, it's crazy, and you know what. It happened at the right time. What a beautiful day that was. Thank you, so glad you were there the venue, the people, the energy, the ceremony. You two, you guys were beaming with light and with joy.

Speaker 3: 4:14

It was this magical moment because it was you know, this is two September's ago and it was the first time really after the pandemic, after the chaos, where people felt comfortable being together and therefore it was one of the first times they were together. And so for us, we got to, you know, have this amazing celebration of our love and our community, but also we felt so lucky to provide a space for all these people that we loved to be able to get together and celebrate in their own way and dance and play and sing and be together, and it was just a joy.

Speaker 1: 4:50

It was beautiful. I mean it was outdoors, the weather was magical, the sun, I mean it was so amazing. And the truth is, the energy that was, I want to say there was a collective energy that was just beautiful. It was in gratitude, it was love and joy and happiness for you two. It was so, so, so neat, one of my favorite weddings ever.

Speaker 2: 5:12

Seriously Thank you.

Speaker 1: 5:13

Because, of that you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Yeah, yeah yeah, it's all it is Okay. Yeah, that was our goal. It was all about, for us, you know, if we're going to do a big wedding, if it wasn't to like have a show, it was to like have all of our people around us and kind of collect that energy, because we have such incredible communities and community between us. So being able to kind of like feel that in one place, especially after a year and a half of pandemic, was unreal. It was incredible.

Speaker 1: 5:43

It was really good. It was really good, all right. So I just said it. This podcast is about sharing stories of gratitude and I will be so honored if you guys give me an opportunity to open your hearts and share your stories of gratitude, even though we already started a little bit, but I would love if you guys will give me that opportunity. So let's get to it. Sounds good, sounds great, great, all right. So these questions are for both of you and you feel free to answer them. You know if you guys want to answer them together or individually, it doesn't matter. So we're just going to go through the questions Right on.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Right on.

Speaker 1: 6:15

So the question that I have for you to is what is gratitude and for you and what is your relationship with it? What is gratitude for you and what is your relationship with it? You got to start this one Cal.

Speaker 2: 6:26

Okay. So I would say, first and foremost, when I hear that question, my first thought is gratitude is a practice, in the same way that you hear people talk about, yoga is a practice, meditation is a practice, all of these different things. I think gratitude is something that you have to be intentional with and active in every single day or consistently. It's that intentional component that allows you to get there, to exist in gratitude. For me, it's a state of being that requires a constant practice and that allows you to shift your energy into this more positive place. Focus on what you have, focus on what's working, focus on what you're working towards in a way that allows you to have the perspective of what's existing right now, and I love that as a day-to-day staple in how you're living your life.

Speaker 3: 7:32

That's great. That's what I'm really looking for sharing I love the.

Speaker 1: 7:37

It is a great answer. What about you, Ben? Anything to add?

Speaker 3: 7:41

Kelly definitely is. You both have this spark right when you bring out the awareness of people to talk about their emotions. You both have this special thing and I think it's also why you all connected in the first place. And for me, I have learned about how to practice gratitude and practice these things. But for me, ultimately, it's about taking stock.

Speaker 3: 8:06

I think in life we get so caught up in just moving forward and what is the next thing, and that the slot machine nature of life where you're always just trying to get that next dopamine hit, that next feeling of accomplishment, and I think that's both great, because that's what keeps us moving and motivated as humans. It's what makes us keep striving and pushing and expanding our boundaries. But gratitude for me is taking those moments of and slowing it down and making sure that you are aware of what you have accomplished and giving yourself the space to appreciate it. Whether that's accomplished like a relationship or space, or it can be anything, it doesn't have to be a personal achievement, but gratitude for the relationships, for health, for where we get to live, for the time we get to live in, whatever it happens to be. So gratitude is for me.

Speaker 1: 9:03

Yeah, thank you for sharing. It's so interesting to see how easy it is for us to take it for granted.

Speaker 1: 9:13

We think it's small, but the truth is yeah. But when we spend some time being present and with the emotion, the feeling of gratitude, there's something really special For me. It's a mindset For me. Gratitude allows me to look at life. The glasses have full To me. The glasses full when I look at life with gratitude, I'm reminded that life is a gift and every single moment is an opportunity for me to Sort of like what you're talking about, then expand my heart, my consciousness, the way I define themes in life forgiveness, love, grace, nature. Anytime that I'm in a mindset of gratitude, I get to appreciate it or see it in a particular way. So, thank you, that's really good. All right, what are you most grateful for?

Speaker 3: 10:08

What I'm most grateful for. It oscillates, it changes depending on where I am and how easily I'm able to access that moment of quiet and actual thought. I am grateful for my wife and for Kelly and for the weird journey that got us to where we are. Since we started with the wedding, we have known each other since high school. We were friends. We became friends when she was a freshman and I was a senior and I gave her a ride home from school.

Speaker 3: 10:41

My very first memory of Kelly is she got into my total TOS Volvo station wagon, which was a 1982, which was we're old, but we're not that old and it was raining.

Speaker 3: 10:55

Whenever it rained, the car leaked and it often leaked on the passenger seat. So Kelly is this freshman we had never met. She gets in the car and it just starts pouring water on her head and my first memory of us is us laughing, and that is. I am so grateful for that memory and what that has meant throughout our entire friendship, which still is much longer than our romantic relationship, and just like I can always check in on moments like that to get perspective and gratitude for us and on us and our relationship, and then, beyond that, I'm grateful for my career, that I get to make music, that I get to again. This is I always have to do the caveat when I'm thinking about stuff like this, because it's not without its struggles. It's not without its, you know, the like, the envy of other people's success or other lifestyles or whatever, but ultimately I've been very fortunate to be able to carve out the life that I intended to carve out, and that's something I can always take stock in and feel enormous gratitude for.

Speaker 1: 12:07

Thank you. Thank you, kelly.

Speaker 2: 12:12

I second, ben, that it changes every day, you know, or rather maybe it doesn't change, but the thing that you're most focused on, the thing that kind of is under the most light, changes day to day, but, I would say, consistently. I try to kind of take daily stock and almost like a gratitude prayer and the things I kind of come back to day after day. Again, going back to that like things I want to be intentional with my gratitude towards our, you know, my relationships, including, you know, my partnership with Ben, and my health and my senses. You know little things like that that are actually huge things that we don't think about day to day.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Just the fact that I can, you know, go for a run or go for a walk or smell coffee in the morning, or you know, hear a piano kind of wafting down the stairs as I come up to our home, and things like that, and the same for my family, my family's health, my family's, you know, ability to be together and exist and kind of have all of those things too, and those are the things that I kind of come back to every single day and, you know, and then sometimes it's bigger, it's clean water, it's a roof over my head, you know, depending on, like, the things that are happening in the world, and you know you take in a lot of darkness with the news day to day and I think that makes you go like, oh, I'm so grateful for this particular thing today and that's kind of something that drives my focus day to day, I would say in terms of like what, what that focus is as it shifts.

Speaker 1: 14:06

Yeah, Thank you. Thank you for sharing. It's interesting. I love asking this question because it's interesting to see similarities, you know, like common threats. You know people do pay attention to the importance. People are grateful for their relationships and their lives. People are grateful for having certain things, you know the certainty and the security of a home, a roof over your head, food, all these things. And the truth is that it's easy to overlook them and we we mentioned it earlier. You know it's easy to take it for granted, but there's something, when you are pressing enough to realize that indeed, it is amazing to have a roof over my head, it is incredible to eat a meal, either by myself or with a friend or with someone, that I really appreciate. It's like those little moments. Sometimes I feel like gratitude helps us to really appreciate what life is. But you know that's just a thought. So can you guys think or remember of a situation or someone or something you guys went through and looking back now you realize that you know yourself better because of this situation.

Speaker 2: 15:22

I laugh, because that feels like every kind of turn I've taken on my journey, especially since, like, maybe, finishing college and graduating undergrad, and just kind of like every little step and I'm somebody who never has a five year plan I've always kind of taken each turn as it's come, and not always with a lot of rhyme or reason in the moment, and so far that that following that kind of intuition, has gotten me to where I am, which has worked most of the time, and you know, every single place, really every single spot, has kind of given me that self-awareness, given experiences that I didn't want.

Speaker 2: 16:06

When I was out, fresh out of college, I took a gap year. I mean, I was working but I didn't like start any real job, jobs and then, after traveling and everything, coming home and knowing I needed to work and save money, and that's when I started working with you, jorge, and you know even that, like I, that was a rough time in terms of just I just think it's hard those couple of years after college. You know you're, you don't know where you want to go and where you are and where you're going. At least that's how it was for me, and you know I that was not a job that fulfilled me emotionally by any means, but I didn't know what that kind of job would be, but like it's a great, you know, I can look back on that and now be like that's right where I was meant to be you know with you.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Look where it gets us. Here we are 12 years later, like being able to have this conversation right. Um, I mean, yeah, I gave us a friendship of a lifetime which was worth it.

Speaker 2: 17:00

And it and I, I know, among other things, but um, yeah, I mean I'd say the biggest one for me in recent years, um is I've been working odd jobs around the city and touring with Ben's band when I could and figuring out what the next step was, um, and starting to think about clinical work a little bit. And then I took a trip to, uh, guatemala with my home church in Louisville and it was. I hadn't done a trip like that since I was in high school and it reconnected me to a part of myself that I kind of lost touch with, um, just doing that type of work, doing service work, you know, getting my hands dirty, laying concrete and painting and and building and doing that kind of like that hands-on work, um, I just felt like myself again and I think that kind of triggered this like desire for me to like start moving in towards a career that is a little bit more of a of a give back mentality than the things I had been doing, um, and that really got me there. And then, yeah, then a kind of a series of events after that led me to applying to graduate school for social work, um, which was like the perfect combination of studies for me and it got me to where I am.

Speaker 2: 18:22

So I'd say like those that kind of like few years of leading up to graduate school were really like rough in some ways, but also like really really meaningful, and like gave me a sense of who I I'm supposed to be in this like more long-term vocational way, which was something that I was desperately searching for through my twenties. Like you know, feeling like all of my friends have this like thing that they're meant to be doing in this spark and this vocation, and I don't have that right. I'm not an artist, I'm not this, I'm not a doctor, I'm not. I'm just feeling kind of resentful about that. And then, all of a sudden, it was like refocusing and realizing like I do have gifts and there's a way to utilize those and to doing the work that I'm passionate about. And that kind of reframe in my life got me to a career that I, that I love and gives my me meaning day to day, which is something I'm so grateful for. Sorry, that was long winded.

Speaker 1: 19:16

I no, no, no, what. What a great answer and I'm so glad that you were so honest because I'm sure there's I'm part of our audience out there might be struggling with it. You listen, I mean, I remember when I was in my early twenties, the huge expectations all over me to to have life figured out, and the older I get I realized I was just a baby when I was in my twenties.

Speaker 2: 19:37

you know 100%.

Speaker 1: 19:38

And if you're in your twenties and you feel like an adult, you are an adult, but but there's a lot of stuff that you're going to figure out, that we figure out as we go, and sometimes we and that's sometimes, I'm convinced that you have to go through what you have to go through in order to to understand things that are just meant for you to understand. And if the audience is listening, yeah, yeah, yeah, if your audience is listening. I'm not talking about abuse. I'm not talking about these things. I'm talking about experiences, situations that we go through when we feel sometimes that we don't necessarily have a clear path to take, that we have more questions than answers.

Speaker 3: 20:16

That is part of the journey itself we had, we had so many conversations when we started dating, because there was this, this very harsh contrast between me, who you know. I went to school, college I started playing piano when I was six, went to college to study music, started a band which I wanted what I wanted to do, started touring and have been on that path ever since. And that comes with its own bizarre set of of you know, psychological demons of am I even choosing this path, like I'm on this path forever? But I essentially knew that I wanted to do music. That was my passion and I'm trying to turn it into a career.

Speaker 3: 20:56

And I think a lot of people feel this pressure to know what they're supposed to do and know what they want to do.

Speaker 3: 21:02

And to you know, always, like what they're doing or there are, there is no answer and it's always changing.

Speaker 3: 21:09

And for Kelly, who went through all these different careers and paths to try to find what it was that she was good at from the outside, I was I've always known she should be a social worker, therapist, like that was such an obvious thing from the outside.

Speaker 3: 21:25

But you know, we all have to go through it. And then you know, even if you know your path, like I've known, that music is my path, but I don't know how that's going to work. I don't know if I'm meant to be touring, if I'm meant to be writing for film, if I'm meant to be doing classical piano, if I'm meant to be teaching like there are so many different avenues within and I think that that struggle that people have I don't know whether you think you know what you want to do or you know the reality never quite matches and it's okay to take stock and again with gratitude, like sometimes you got to go through jobs or periods in your life that aren't satisfying or giving you that spark of life in order to get to the other side, and sometimes you got to be grateful for those periods of your life which then provide perspective and get you to where you are.

Speaker 2: 22:15

Yeah, and I think, and to be flexible with your, be flexible with your identity right, like that self-awareness doesn't mean it's something you know, it's not something that that's that's totally stable once it's found right, like life's going to throw you situations and environments and circumstances that are going to make you question who you are and if what you're doing makes you happy still, and something that you know you might feel totally good in your self-esteem and your self-awareness and concept, and then, five years later, maybe you don't, because of the circumstances or situation or just natural growth, and you have to be able to reevaluate and take stock of that. So I think, yeah to your point, like also having this flexibility around, knowing that that might be in flux and that that is, in and of itself, a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1: 23:06

Indeed, indeed, indeed, I'm so, see, that's why you guys have to be here. These are so real conversations and, you know, the truth is we're not that far apart in age. You know, we have a few years. You know years between us, but it's not a whole lot, and I just love how historically, we have lived a moment, I feel like, where we are recognizing that it is okay. We cannot be so hard on ourselves, right? We should have this flexibility that you mentioned, kelly of like be. You mentioned something be flexible with your identity. That makes so much sense to me.

Speaker 1: 23:46

You know, when I started working with you, I was in my why? Maybe late 20s, mid 20s, and I was coming out of seminary and I had to go through that path of you. If you go to seminary, you have to become ordained as a minister, and this is what your life should look like, and in that process, I wanted to be somehow connected to music, and this is why I resonate so much with you, ben. And, by the way, I need to make a parenthesis Ben is being super humble right now. Okay, for those of you who do not know who Ben is, he is a member of the band called Jukebox the Ghost, and if you have not checked them out, you guys are missing out, okay.

Speaker 2: 24:26

So I'm just gonna leave it like that there, because it's not about that.

Speaker 1: 24:29

It's about the two of them. But if you have to check them out, either in his single releases and as part of the band Jukebox the Ghost, check them out. Their music is incredible. But back to this point, kelly and Ben I mean Kelly, you witnessed it in me, you know there was I feel like most of our job was conversations of me trying to figure out what was next or how to handle what was given to me in terms of responsibilities. You know, I was a youth pastor and I loved it.

Speaker 1: 25:02

But at that point that it was a lot, you know Well. Thank you, thank you. And I'm so humble with that experience and the opportunity. I'm so grateful. You know, what's crazy is that 12 years later, I'm now officiating weddings of my former youth, and that's just fascinating, right. But the point here is that there's gonna be. Life is not exempt from this constant reevaluating, this constant figuring things out. What really gives meaning, how I find meaning in life. Are these things that have death or are these things that are shallow? And it's my spirit, or my soul, my heart, my true self. It's an alignment that can recognize when things are really in the right place or where I need some retuning, right, I mean, what would you say about that?

Speaker 3: 25:51

I think that's absolutely right.

Speaker 3: 25:56

I was just caught up in everything you were just saying. To be honest, I think, yeah, always recalibrating and, as you were saying, that I was thinking like part of it is gratitude is being grateful, that you can take stock. You know, I was thinking about us as living in America, in these middle class-ish existences in big, wonderful cities, and that we have the you know, space to ask these questions and the space to evaluate ourselves and I am grateful for that While we're in this sort of meta space of existence and what it means and what it means to be grateful, like we are very lucky to be able to have this conversation and be able to, you know, look at our lives in that way, you know.

Speaker 2: 26:52

Right. Yeah, it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, If you are familiar with that, but it's a triangle kind of like the food pyramid but essentially it's that concept right that you have to have these basics right.

Speaker 2: 27:06

You have to have safety, food, water, shelter. You have to have those things at your baseline. If those are things you're in need of and searching of, you can't do self-actualization, that type of work that requires those basic needs to be stable first. And so I think about that a lot with to bring it back to gratitude in terms of you know, what we have, which is so many things that allow us to even get meta and existential and think about things like this and practice gratitude for these more like small, fine-tuned kinds of things day to day, because every day I have a roof over my head and clean water and my health and freedom and opportunity for education, and you know the list goes on and on. So, yeah, I think I almost got the giggles when you were started talking about that, just because we're having this conversation here in kind of a formal way. But it's funny to me because this is exactly the kind of chat that you and I, or the three of us, would have, or you and Ben, like just on a Tuesday on the phone.

Speaker 2: 28:16

Like it's just like. This is so not out of character for us and this is like how you guide conversations like this in your day to day life. For no reason, right, Like you would just call me and just like have a big conversation like this, which I'm so grateful for because it allows me to kind of take stock on a day where maybe I was just kind of like moving through without that intention, right. But it's just really cool that you're turning that it's such a natural part of who you are day to day and it's cool that you're turning it into to something like this.

Speaker 1: 28:46

Well, you know what. Thank you for saying that. And if the audience is listening, I mean this is a process of, I think we are verbalizing what we're talking about, which is disability, and giving ourselves permission to sort of like reinvent ourselves and give ourselves permission to grow in ways that we never expected, right? I love the image and the phrase you guys have mentioned time and time again, which is taking stock. It's like you know, are you aware of how much you are receiving? Are you aware of how much you're able to give back because of what you receive? Are you connected with who you are enough to understand that that ability to connect with yourself becomes an opportunity for empathy and compassion and understanding in other people. And that's just fascinating because you I mean, you talked about it the pyramid of Maslow makes so much sense.

Speaker 1: 29:46

I remember when, let's be honest, when you are driven by anxiety, you don't have an ability to see perhaps the larger and the bigger picture, and it makes so much sense your mind, your heart, is distracted and it's focused on things that are repeating a cycle of thought that keeps you in that mindset of survival, and the truth is that the world that we live in it's bombarded with that.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Like you say, ben, we are privileged enough that we live in a country and cities that have some sort of organization and privilege and opportunities, but the truth is that amongst ourselves, in the cities that we live, some people don't have that opportunity and they're going day by day, and that with the inability to take a breather, right, and so that's really hard.

Speaker 1: 30:41

And I hope that if you're listening and you find yourself in that situation, trust that you can take a moment, you can take a moment to breathe, you can take a moment to just to be in silence and allow to spend some time for you to get to know how your mind works, what are the repetitive thoughts that run through your mind, and when you pay attention to it, you realize that you are playing a narrative and you have to discover and understand what that narrative it's. What's behind that narrative? Right, there's a story. There's some baggage that sometimes needs to be parsed out and weed out, but that process will allow us to sort of access a deeper part within us that then it shows up in ways that becomes a gift for the world.

Speaker 2: 31:25

You know. So I don't know, that is you kind of just tapped into. I work with clients primarily with the modality of cognitive behavioral therapy, and what you're describing is in many ways similar to that work like getting to your core beliefs. And what are these like we call them automatic thoughts that are constantly going through your mind, right, we all have thousands or millions of them a day, and most of the time we're unaware of them, and the hard part is that they predominantly for everyone lean into a negative light, right? And so being able that's the coolest thing, I think in therapy for anybody is that you get to kind of like unwind those and figure them out and start to like piece these pieces of the puzzle together for yourself, and that's. It's such a cool experience because, to your point, anxiety is a great example of something that takes us out of the present, and if you're not in the present, it's harder to take that stock and therefore it might be harder to practice that state of gratitude, right.

Speaker 2: 32:29

So I'm constantly in conversation with clients about this because, let's say, for somebody, they're struggling with their ambition, their ambition and comparing themselves to others and everything it motivates them and it drives them, and all of these things, which can be true, it's a both, and it can also be causing you to be so focused on what's next, what your future things are, what you need to accomplish, what you need to do in comparison to your peers or your colleagues or whatever that it's, without even realizing it. You are never in the present. You're not practicing that day to day moment or taking taking stock, going back, taking a breath, checking in with yourself, asking yourself how does my body feel today, where do I feel it? And being able to kind of sit with that. And yeah, and oftentimes I'll say to a client that's anxiety. That fact that you haven't been able to like get there or that you don't think you can just sit down and do that. That's an anxious part of you that is pushing you forward and telling you like you've got to go, go, go, go go.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Yet the wisdom and the still small voice, or the breakthrough, comes when we Right, yep, when we slow down, when we stop Right, when we listen, which is crazy.

Speaker 2: 33:48

And it doesn't have to be a big thing yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:51

It doesn't have to be a big thing.

Speaker 1: 33:53

It is actually a very yes, and sometimes the breakthrough, the liberation, comes from a very small thought Right that all of a sudden is completely disconnected from this anxiety driven narrative that we keep telling ourselves. And I love when you describe what anxiety looks like and how you empower your clients to validate oh, this is anxiety, you know. It took me years to understand that I come from. I think I grew up in a really anxiety driven context. You know my parents and back home in Puerto Rico and but not in that. I mean, that's a different story, but it took. I didn't understood how much anxiety was driven, everything that I was doing, even in my marriage and my career, because I was so anxious to be perfect, to do everything right. You know, living in the United States and speaking another language and trying to be cool and trying to be understood or trying to be respectable, that was really hard. And then I realized wait, everything that I'm doing is I'm trying to be Jorge in here, but it's actually was driven. This it's fear, it's insecurity, it's anxiety, it's crazy.

Speaker 2: 35:05

Yeah, I think that's true for so many people. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:08

Okay. So next question why do you do what you do? What keeps you motivated and is gratitude connected to it in any way? You guys touch a little bit on it, but I think we need to go deeper.

Speaker 3: 35:24

Yeah, I'll start on this, because Kelly gave me a look, this is for me. Wait, okay. So the first part. Remind me. The first part of that question was why do?

Speaker 1: 35:33

you do what you do and what keeps you motivated I it's gratitude connected to that.

Speaker 3: 35:42

First, the answer is yes for all three. Why I do what I do, I don't know. I don't know I have all I mean. What I do know is that that music for me, is as close to spirituality as I get. That is my religion, it's my tapping into this other plane of existence and it has been that way for as long as I can remember. I remember hearing music for the first time at like three, four and just weeping, being destroyed by it, and that feeling of searching for that depth is something that I have done forever and I think that's still a primary motivating thing.

Speaker 3: 36:31

Gratitude is, I think, the thing that keeps me on the path that I am on right now. Most of the time I get to. You know, I've been touring with this band, jukebox the Ghost, for coming up on 16 years and that is. It has been really hard in a lot of ways. It is wonderful that it gets to support me and it gives me some freedom and I get to play the songs that I've written and spend time with people that I adore and travel the country and travel the world and have incredible experiences.

Speaker 3: 37:11

But ultimately, you know, I'm not the kind of person that's like if I'm at a holiday party, I'm not gonna sit down at the piano and say everyone gather around, let's sing some songs and let me lead it. That's not what it is for me. I don't actually crave the spotlight. What I crave is bringing joy to people. And looking in the audience and seeing whether it's 100 people or 2000 people it's people smiling and dancing and jumping and singing along.

Speaker 3: 37:42

That is what I crave, that is what I'm working for, that's my drug and what keeps me going ultimately is and I'm not just saying that because of this podcast, but it is that gratitude and that cyclical exchange of emotion and joy and that I get from them the energy and the love that lets me be inspired to keep doing the thing that gives me energy and that I love, so I can create songs that impact people in one way or another.

Speaker 3: 38:21

And, because it's a little self-serving too, because that does it for me, when I write a song that feels big and emotional, I get that release of whatever I have been sitting with and working through and then it reaches somebody else and hopefully it either gives them the lift of joy and a way out or a way to look at themselves and experience, and I've received messages from people who listen to one of our songs while a parent was dying, or had an experience with a sibling that was lost, or this is the thing that the two best friends do forever, or a couple met at one of our shows. Those moments are the moments that continue to give me joy and inspiration, and I feel enormous gratitude that I get to do that and get to give that to people and that I get to receive that in return.

Speaker 1: 39:22

Thank you, ben, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm so excited that you answered this question first, just because, from a very selfish perspective, I've always admired you. Thank you Precisely because of what you're able to do through music. As a musician myself, I know what it is like to pour yourself into a song and, more importantly, when, all of a sudden, this breakthrough of your channeling something that is not sometimes you're channeling and the song becomes a way to channel your emotions or whatnot. But you know that sometimes the song just comes, just hits you, yes, and all of a sudden it's a gift from the universe, it's a gift for people to connect and you happen to be that instrument and that's so humbling at the same time. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 40:07

It's just powerful and, yes, there's an element that is self-serving or you're eager and whatnot. But I think what you describe, what you just described, is very different from being motivated by an egotistic place in you that you need to be the center of attention. On the contrary, you are creating through your music, through your gift, a space where people experience the experience of being alive, where people experience the emotions and the joy of sitting with a friend or going in the car and cranking that song because it's hilarious and it's amazing, or the song that really allows you to process something really profound and complicated in yourself and all of a sudden, the melody, the harmony, everything combines with the words and it's just here it is and I don't understand it and no one understands what makes music work, why some songs resonate and some songs don't.

Speaker 3: 41:03

I'll write a song that I think is the greatest song ever and nobody cares.

Speaker 3: 41:07

And then I'll write a song that is I think is fine and it's everybody's favorite song and at the end of the day, like it doesn't really matter to me because ultimately I get something out of writing it and I'm grateful that, because other people respond to it, I get to do what I love and continue to take risks and write songs and do things and I don't know, it's pretty spectacular. And again, this is gratitude, right that it is very easy to get for me to get beat up about, like how hard touring is, how physically exhausting it is, how much uncertainty I have in terms of like longevity, or what am I gonna do next year or what if people stop coming to the shows. There's a lot of anxiety which can pop in and drive decisions. But ultimately I am grateful that there is a fan base and that I'm grateful that my music seems to find people and they resonate with it and that is really fortunate and really lucky that I get to do that.

Speaker 1: 42:16

Thank you, ben. Thank you, kelly, your turn. What do you do, why do you do what you do and what keeps you motivated and is gratitude connected to it in any way?

Speaker 2: 42:26

Okay, before I just had a random funny memory that connected to what Ben was saying, that my first tour with them.

Speaker 2: 42:34

It was like three months Ben and I started dating on that tour and but I went just as like Ben's best friend and good friends, with the other two guys, tommy and Jesse, and it just what made me think of it is that I had been working in this, my first kind of big New York job, and it was sucking the life out of me day by day.

Speaker 2: 42:55

It was just kind of a devil wears Prada-esque situation and I was isolated in this office and it was a big corporate setting and all of these things and I was so miserable to the point where Ben had come up to have lunch with me and said why don't you come on the road with us and be our merch girl and sell our merch and we'll pay you and you can whatever. And it was just like the out that I needed to quit my job anyway. So I did so every day and I love being nomadic and kind of moving around and got to see the whole country and so every day I was kind of like super excited and I was like I'll drive six hours, like I don't care and like all car, like I just had this kind of I don't know what the you were green.

Speaker 3: 43:34

You were like oh my gosh, tour is magical and exciting. And I'm in another venue and it's like there's beer soaked floors and like we're not sleeping and we're at a bad hotel in the middle of Iowa, Like everything was magical, but I don't care because I'm not stuck at that freaking desk right.

Speaker 2: 43:48

So, for me it was like we had these really different perspectives. They were 10 years into touring and getting a little like, you know, a little tired, a little grumpy, a little over it, just like this is work and whatever, and like the day to day, and those are long, hard days, like the shows are exciting and fun but everything else around it is kind of rough. And it was just I just remember them, the three boys like all the time just saying to me like why are you so cheery? But I know it also kind of helped the vibe when I look back on it which is just.

Speaker 2: 44:16

It just made me think of that. It's like perspective is everything right Cause, and just like making sure that, like you, channel that energy into situations somehow, which wasn't the intention of me going on the road, but it definitely was, but it worked out, and now we're married. And now we're married.

Speaker 1: 44:30

So I'll take that as a win.

Speaker 3: 44:31

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 44:34

Anyway, that made me think of that.

Speaker 3: 44:36

Kelly, what do you do?

Speaker 2: 44:37

Oh yeah, okay, so I, why do I do what I do? So I am a clinical social worker, I'm a therapist for private practice here in Brooklyn and I would say the simplest way for me to answer that question is when you get a social work masters, you have endless options of career kind of trajectories to take, which is one of the reasons I picked it and. But I knew that I wanted to do clinical work and the more that I kind of dived into the experiences through, through graduate school and different internships and whatnot, I realized like I I have a high capacity for burnout in terms of getting I can get really beat down when I'm working at the macro level. So even though I really believe in it you know, like organizations getting grants and working for these big, amazing, you know kind of nonprofits and doing that type of work I know that that's not what is best for me and therefore I won't serve them as best as I possibly could. Because even though I really believe in that and I wish I could do that type of work, I will burn out quickly because I get that. That is something that leans me into a more like cynical part of my brain and it beats me down quicker, and so I learned pretty quickly that you know we call that kind of like mezz or macro work and social work, and what I prefer is micro work.

Speaker 2: 46:04

And I really believe that by working with individuals or couples which is which is what I do, that each individual kind of taking that step, doing therapy, which is so hard, it's such hard work, it's self-work as I think some of the hardest work you'll do in your life and by doing that and helping kind of guide people through this process they are able to, you know, any of us are able to become their best self or lean into that gratitude or move away from the anxiety that allows them to work from a place of gratitude or joy and in turn, I think you know, be a more productive asset to society, because we get out of our little anxiety bubble that keeps all of us in at any given day and we get to like step out of that and see that perspective and be more vibrant and more, contribute more to our communities and our relationships and ourselves, in the same way that like and just self-care right, like, just by like helping people practice like self-care day to day, they're able to like care for their loved ones, be a better parent, be a better teacher, be a better you know partner, whatever it is, and I love getting to see that kind of like little, the little milestones that I think, in the grand scheme of things, make truly your community and your world a much better place.

Speaker 3: 47:32

Does that answer the question that's such a good answer.

Speaker 1: 47:34

Absolutely, perhaps a great. It's a great answer and my mind is spinning because a part of me is like, okay, this is good. This is good. Can I? What's the next follow-up question from what you're saying and whatnot.

Speaker 1: 47:46

But so your response made me think of a couple of things how your passion to create a space for people to do self-work. You said that self-work is one of the most important things that people can do. I agree with you 200%, and self-work can look in many different ways. It can be you're gonna eat healthy. It can be you're gonna choose and be more intentional with your intake of what you put in the TV, what you read. You know. Self-help can look in many, many different ways.

Speaker 1: 48:24

I happen to believe that when you do that work, not only you show up better for other people, but in a very utopic way, we are actually making this world a better place because we're recognizing that we're all in this together but yet we live lives right. Sometimes society tells us that. I mean, I actually think that we're transitioning out of that. We now live in a world that it's understanding the importance of what it is to take care of yourself and many different aspects of your life, and we are. I feel like we're normalizing, taking a self, not self help like a self, like a day for yourself at work Sometimes it's okay. Mental health day, yeah, or take out the half of the day for yourself, or leave early if you need to. Certain things that sort of like empower you to get to that place of what I now consider as self love Okay. But I recognize that until without going to therapy for almost 13 years, I would have not been able to access that space. Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1: 49:39

Without the tools of studying theology and understanding the elements that have contributed for religion to be what it is today, to understand the difference between religion and spirituality, to recognize that at times it's necessary to put religion to the side and just cultivate who you are and get to know who you are and then revisit your relationship with whatever you consider to be religion. All these different things were things that sort of like have helped me to, sort of like, find and discover the death of Jorge. And because I have recognized those areas of vulnerability, those areas of fragility in me, those insecurities in me, I can believe it or not, recognize it in the other person. And so when people feel like, all of a sudden, all of a, they can leave their guards down, they can be vulnerable because there's no judgment in that space, which, kelly, I think you do that organically. I agree with you, ben, that's a gift in her and you have this, kelly, you know it's really powerful when we offer that space and I think we do organically. We do that. That's what friendships are, you know, that's what perhaps good mentors offer to our lives, right, this space of sort of like wisdom, guidance, holding the tension, without the judgment. These are really important spaces that we need to connect with Working with youth and young adults for you know almost you know 12, 15 years before I now work with children I have understood the importance of providing with emotional learning tools so young people can access and grow up understanding that you can access and connect with your own intuition right and also with youth and young adults, knowing that I mean just bearing witness, recognizing that sometimes life gives us an opportunity to honor certain situations in each other's lives, that there's something really special to it and I love that you, that you and I connect with that.

Speaker 1: 52:04

You know, and I think I recognize, that for some people that's just not their cup of tea and they're, you know they're more entrepreneurs or they're more into business and to numbers and to other things. But I have discovered over time that chances are that when you connect with that human aspect, which is what I consider our shared humanity this is what this podcast is all about connecting with our shared humanity something magical happens. We find healing, we find an opportunity to reframe our stories, we find an opportunity to release some of the things that we've been holding on to for so long, that gave us a false sense of identity and we go through life with that false sense of identity that don't allow us to really show our true colors and, all of a sudden, with people like you that create a space to say, okay, tell me what's going on. And for some people, you know this is true, so people don't even know how to start and where to start. But if you're listening, start somewhere, start somewhere.

Speaker 1: 53:08

Journal, talk to a friend. If you need to find a counselor there's so many different resources and, kelly, this is your chance to plug in whatever you're doing or any suggestions of people that can connect to, because this, true, take your time and would you agree with me, take the time to find the right therapist. Yes, sometimes people don't connect, so it's important to find the right therapist that you feel like you can really like. Okay, this is the person that helps me to enter this place in my mind and my heart, that I can, that I have a hard time with, but I, all of a sudden, this person gives me courage, makes me feel comfortable. What would you say about that?

Speaker 2: 53:49

You know, it's an interesting and very unique relationship, the client-therapist relationship and, with that said, even though it's boundaryed and unique, it's extremely intimate and you need to find somebody, just like you would with a friend or a partner or colleague or whatever that you feel that you can build that with, naturally and it's not a reflection of the therapist right. I say that to people all the time Like, if we do a consultation or whatever, you know I'll say sleep on it. I understand you're probably, you know, talking to a few different people and please know that if we're not the right match, like that is totally fine, I don't. That is not going to weigh on me in terms of my capacity, right, I know that I'm a great therapist for certain people and for certain people I'm, either I don't meet the right needs or we're just not the right fit and I, you know, I try to also tell people, like, if I think that that's true, I will also tell you that.

Speaker 2: 54:47

Like, if I don't think that I'm going to serve you and support you as best I can, for whatever reason, I'll tell you because I want you to have a good experience and I know so many people I mean clients tell me, but I just all friends and through my own experiences even that you know you sit down with somebody and the fit just isn't quite right and sometimes you push through and then you get discouraged.

Speaker 2: 55:08

Or a lot of times people just say associate like the experience with one person as their. That's their association with therapy as on a whole, and I would just advise everybody to kind of do the work to find, you know, put in that extra effort, do consultations, ask to meet people for for a few minutes and go with your gut and go with the person that feels best for you in that moment and know that that relationship isn't meant to be forever or permanent. It might be 12 sessions, it might be five years, right, but and then you move to the next person and have that honesty to like know that your needs might change and develop and and just be really honest with each other.

Speaker 1: 55:49

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, next question how do you access self love in moments of need? What practices, what helps you access self love?

Speaker 3: 56:05

Talk to Kelly and I get her advice. It's hard, it's really hard. I mean, actually that is sort of my answer, like I lean on community and I lean on people, on the people that I have in my, in my sphere, to like help hold up a mirror and give me perspective. I don't have a, I don't have a clean answer on that, to be honest.

Speaker 1: 56:36

That's good. No, no, this is your answer. This is excellent. Yeah, I don't know how you feel about you, Kelly.

Speaker 2: 56:40

I would say the same conversation, conversation with you. But the things that stand out to me the most are, well, first of all, just that. It's really hard, I think it's hard to access that, that self love, on a regular basis. And it's different for everyone, you know, for me it's I don't even know if this is totally intentional but where I often find it is taking a moment, taking a pause, which usually requires me to do something physical first. So I have a real love hate relationship with, like yoga and exercise and all these different things, because physically I am very on the opposite end of the spectrum from an athlete or somebody who enjoys any physical activity. But but you know, just even doing like a stretch, a 10 minute stretch, like, allows me to be still for a moment. It forces me to, I think, have that mind body connection. It forces me into mindfulness, which is why I say it's a complicated relationship, because as soon as I do that, I'm more likely to kind of go into that gratitude state and kind of reorient where my focus is for the day and and that is probably the place by doing that right, by kind of sit going like you know, thank you for, you know, my health and my partner and my family's health Like that helps me feel that self love, just by by kind of taking the time to connect with myself in that way.

Speaker 2: 58:08

And then the other thing that came to mind was is to Ben's point is community. And what's interesting is that, you know, I was somebody I'm all the way on the extrovert spectrum and I was somebody who was always with people. I threw my probably my mid to late 20s. I was always with a friend. I never did anything alone. I was always with people. I felt like horrible.

Speaker 2: 58:30

If I needed to take a night off, like you know, I would suffer with that FOMO, guilt, whatever it was, and I've obviously grown out of that a lot, just naturally through age, but also with the pandemic. And now I have to remind myself, you know, I work from home. When I have downtime I want to. I often want to spend it with Ben, which is important and and in its own right. But I find that when I nourish my relationship, when I nurture those kind of friendships, that space, and I make time to connect with my best friends or old friends or relationships or whatever it is that I typically leave feeling a lot better and feeling that self love because, because I've learned, I'm lucky in my community rocks, but also like I've learned to surround myself with people that that bring out the best in me and remind me to like to be my best self and practice things, and they leave me feeling good and that's such a huge gift.

Speaker 1: 59:32

Mm. Hmm, thank you for sharing that, you know, because it's important to recognize what kind of people are you bringing into your life and what they are doing and the sense of community. I think there's, there's some wisdom in this whole phrase that says you know the family that you get to choose. You have a family, but you also have an opportunity to choose a family, and and and there's some wisdom behind that, I feel, you know, when you, when you realize that certain people really bring the best out of you and they might do it because they push you, they might do it because they create a space where you can open up, and they might, they might do it in so many different levels, right, but the fact that there's an opportunity to reconnect, to, to, to show compassion for each other, to hold space, that's really powerful and indeed I agree with you. I think we can access self love like that. And I also resonate with you when you talk about how you were like, like the extreme version of a definition of an extravert and how you gradually, over time, you sort of like come more to a, like a middle ground. I'm the same way.

Speaker 1: 1:00:36

I remember when I was in my twenties. I actually to the point that I recognize that it was a compulsion, it was a need. I needed to be affirmed by other people and once I understood that I was like wait, I'm actually doing this because I'm I don't have an opportunity to recognize that I can love myself. So that was an awakening, that was a self realization that came over years of you know, spirituality, meditation, therapy, marriage, you know all of those things that are sort of like bring you to like to confront certain realities. You know, but no, that's good, all right, all right.

Speaker 1: 1:01:11

So, okay, I want to honor people's spend of attention and I just think that we're at a good time that we can bring this to a close. But I like to close always with two questions. One is what special quote or figure has inspired you lately, or something that heads, it's a north for you throughout your life? That's that. So I want to ask both of you that. And then the other one is that I always like to ask my guest who future guests should be in your opinion, who do you think could be a good guest for this podcast? So let's start with the first one. Is there a quote, a person, a figure that that sort of like serves you as an example as a north that you follow throughout your life.

Speaker 3: 1:02:04

It's funny. There's a quote that I'm now realizing that I've messed up and screwed around within my brain.

Speaker 3: 1:02:14

But, and now I can't even remember what book it's in. So forgive the vagueness of this answer, but it's asking yourself where am I, what am I doing and what happened for you to get here? And, for example, it's like so I am in my music studio in Brooklyn with Kelly doing this amazing podcast. How did I get here? Well, first I like I had coffee and I started my day and oh, but also, like I had to tour for 15 years to be able to pay for the studio. But also I had to nurture 15 years of relationships with Kelly and you and I got to meet. And. But how did you and Kelly get together?

Speaker 3: 1:02:59

You went to seminary, kelly went to, and all of a sudden I've gone all the way back in time and it takes something that is like very micro and potentially anxiety inducing and makes it so big that everything else sort of washes away and it gives me perspective. To be like, oh, I'm here because everything has led to this moment Doesn't mean it's a big moment, doesn't mean it has to carry any extra weight, but it's provided a way to like have some extra centering and can give perspective at any given time. To be like it is extraordinary that I am here, that you are here, that we are here and wherever we are it's extraordinary.

Speaker 2: 1:03:40

It's a beautiful mindfulness practice really yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:43

It is, it is. Thank you, ben, you're the man, you're the man.

Speaker 3: 1:03:49

What about you, Kelly?

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

I'm going to go the person route and say the first. Just hearing the word gratitude, my brain immediately thinks about my dad, because he's just he's awesome.

Speaker 1: 1:04:06

He's awesome, he's awesome, he's great.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

He's a great human and we almost tease him because he kind of focuses so much on a couple pillars and it's primarily gratitude and joy and obviously it has seeped into us because, you know, before we were at our wedding and it seemed to be like those were the themes that kept coming up.

Speaker 2: 1:04:31

I think because they're both things that Ben and I have learned to stay in practice of right To like we know that they are things that we have to be intentional with and a lot of that comes from my dad's focus on that and his influence on me and our relationship.

Speaker 2: 1:04:48

And Ben individually and, yeah, just he just always kind of hones in on that and, like you know, he has provided and given me so much and allows me to kind of have had this kind of ability to be existential in adulthood and find a vocation and all of these different things.

Speaker 2: 1:05:07

And I think that Bernie is so polar opposite of that and such a different story than my own and the fact that he can, you know, live in this state of gratitude constantly and work from that place and, you know, do his humanitarian work in this kind of chapter of his life is such motivation and you know I hate to say it, but that's probably the biggest influence for us and my parents. I mean, we both have great, amazing parents and that's, you know, so lucky, but they've really taught us to practice that in our relationship also. Just that like saying thank you every day for the little things and how important that is in the partnership. So I think we really hone in on that data. Like that's so intentional for Ben and I Not to say that you know we ace it every day. That's obviously impossible but but it's purposeful when we do it and that feels really cool.

Speaker 3: 1:06:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:05

Yeah, Thank you. All right.

Speaker 3: 1:06:09

So the last question is well, I just I'm going to, I'm going to preempt your question because I was thinking like, like when I was like you know, kelly's dad would actually be a good guest, but it'd be a more interesting guest in his retirement. He has worked, he's worked with KRM, kentucky refugee ministries, and has worked for many years getting providing housing and infrastructure and community to refugees from all over the world, and I actually thought it would be a cool for a guest to be her dad, mike, and maybe one of the refugees that he has a relationship with to get both of their perspectives at the same time.

Speaker 2: 1:06:49

Yeah, I'm digging that. Yeah, that's a cool.

Speaker 1: 1:06:54

That is a great idea.

Speaker 3: 1:06:55

You know, mike, mike on his own is is again another. Like you know, I don't know, I think, having someone from another country with very different perspectives on what, you know what the parameters are for feeling gratitude, you know, that's such a different level of of understanding. You know, as we said earlier, like we are all very fortunate to live, you know where we live and live relatively comfortably. But to have some perspective from someone who hasn't but might also have some gratitude for things that we wouldn't even think to have gratitude for, could be interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:07:31

Yeah, and and sometimes the similarities in those really unique stories right.

Speaker 2: 1:07:36

It makes me think of this is a weird side note, but the Dolly Parton had this big like car accident or something and ended up working with this doctor for a long time. Who whose son ended up doing the Dolly Parton's America podcast. But their connection was that he the doctor and Dolly was that you know she was from extreme poverty in the mountains of Tennessee and kind of Appalachian, you know, back in the day and and her experience of that and this doctor was had a very similar experience but in Lebanon and they were similar ages and so you know polar opposite signs of the world in so many ways, but really similar experiences and like they come together and it's like poverty poverty in some ways, not across the board, but in some aspects. And it just makes me think of that, like you know my dad's history versus like a refugees and he wouldn't make that comparison necessarily, but like I can see you know where like compassion and empathy comes from and and certain correlations there and yeah, I think that's a cool idea.

Speaker 1: 1:08:35

That is a great idea. Thank you guys, thank you, thank you. Thank you Well, ben and Kelly, thank you for this amazing podcast and for the opportunity to have this conversation. To say that I love you is an understatement. Back at you I love you, love you, love you, love you, and I'm grateful for our friendship. I'm grateful for who you are individually, for who you are as a couple and for the beautiful light that you guys shine in every aspect of your lives. I appreciate your humanity. I appreciate the fact that you guys are real with me and you guys have given me an opportunity to share this humanity with not only with me, but with our listeners, and that really means a lot Listeners. This has been great.

Speaker 3: 1:09:14

I have to say this that that, jorge, thank you for. You know, if someone's listening to this podcast and only knows you here, then it's important to note that this is who you are always and that in itself is so special and such a gift that, wherever you go, you are providing this space to have these conversations, but also wanting to ask the conversations, wanting to get at the core of who people are, and searching for the humanity across all boundaries, borders, spaces, relationships. It's a really unique and beautiful quality that you have, and so grateful for you.

Speaker 2: 1:09:50

You're taking something kind of simple, but in theory, but that like it's hard to have conversation around and connect them on and I think a lot of people shy away from this conversation and you just do it with such ease. And the fact that you're turning it into a space for people to absorb and listen and reflect is such a reflection of you and the gifts that you have that you want to share with the world for the right reasons. So proud of you. Thank you for involving us.

Speaker 1: 1:10:17

Well, thank you, my friend, Thank you, listeners. This is another episode of Journey Talks Podcast and I hope that you guys hear time and time again the beauty of the meaning of this journey and the gift of this journey of life. So blessings to you guys. Have a great time and I look forward to seeing you and connecting you in the next episode. Take care, thank you for listening, make sure you like, follow and subscribe to our podcast, share your feedback, hit that notification bell and let's keep the conversation going.